free or pretension?

[v russo]

I saw the New York Philharmonic give a free concert at a park on Long Island this weekend. There had to be 50,000 people there as far as the eye could see. I wondered what made so many people (of all ages) interested in seeing this type of music. Was it the 'free' factor and the fireworks display given afterward or are people more comfortable seeing classical music on thier own terms and in more comfortable surroundings?

The program included Debussy and Richard Strauss. The audience was very well behaved and stayed until the very end.

I found this quite inspiring (considering the many topics on the death of classical music that often come up these days- and on this forum as well.)

Is it the money that keeps people away or the pretensious history associated with this music and its surroundings?

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v russo

[This message has been edited by v russo (edited 07-20-2004).]

[Beyond Within]

I think a lot of people showed up because it was well-marketed. A 'usual' classical concert is just that - a usual classical concert. This one had a very enticing gimmick, and was probably advertised moreso than a normal hook-less concert would be.

What keeps people away is mostly that we are told that all music is completely subjective, and that if we dont like it after a few listens, then we dont like it at all. Classical music requires knowledge to enjoy, it isnt just candy like most music is now. Most people cant appreciate a smooth modulation - or a beautiful counterpoint (people arent used to the idea that you need to pay attention to the musical themes and 'think' about whats going on). Its a lot of things really....<insert hodgepodge copy and paste of my earlier post>

[Joy]

We have a lot of concerts that are performed outside in a beautiful park by a lake and there are always loads of people attending. Soemtimes they have a fireworks display afterwards. I think the fireworks and the location draws a lot of people, hopefully the classical music does too. That's what draws me foremost and first is the music and then the surrounding atmosphere. I also really enjoy outdoor concerts.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[william jesset]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:


Classical music requires knowledge to enjoy, it isnt just candy like most music is now. Most people cant appreciate a smooth modulation - or a beautiful counterpoint (people arent used to the idea that you need to pay attention to the musical themes and 'think' about whats going on). Its a lot of things really....<insert hodgepodge copy and paste of my earlier post>

Wm Jesset replies; Exactly! and
Thank You , as I've allowed myself to become disenchanted with this site via the fascination (56 hits) with the counterproductive pondering ,as to what Wagner et al HAS to do with negativity of the PAST. IE " you know who/what". As I will not
write the words, it just conjuring the 'demons' of the past and has NOTHING to do with MUSIC.
Thank you ,as we construct a dialogue concerning music.
brief generalisation of music;
it was once for initiates to religion(s),then it was a diversion/ part of the 'makeup' for
aristocrates, kings etc. Who not only enjoyed to hear,but played also, as a king was ,if not in fact, by 'ideal', well rounded in mind, body, and spirit. Hence a court composer to stay employed ,'created' more and more 'challenging' music for the 'King', who would be up to said challenge to 'hear' it all.
In part to this, the bar has been raised so in a way you either learn to hear with an aristocratic sensablity of you 'eat cake with the commoner's'.
No matter if classical is heard on MTV(which if you want to obsess as to what is "Obscene", how about 80 children in india? because no one had the courage.)or in a 'free'concert its moot as long as it is alive and well. I see nothing wrong with ALL types
of music if ITS BASED in HARMONY, 'harmonious'is the factor that must be present via "laws of nature' overtones etc.
Commerical music's (read Ganster rap) as opposed to Wagner who 'created' beautious
HARMOY were rap et all is a commercial abhorent form of corporate control'IE 'keepin it real(as in stupid).
This is fine, But I say this as a disclosure,IF you,whether it be ROCK,RAP,classical,reggae, etc. use this music to DEFINE who you are. As in dress,stance of morals,ie "Im a better person
because I listen to classics, or goth rock,thrash,hip hop, jazz, I think you miss the whole point.
Music is healing via HARMONY,which can make you better,
but only you have the power to BE a Better person. By example of your 'fruits' then maybe people will know or see more, Not by 'throttling' someone into submission' but by example.
Thank you for your indulgence and patience. Wm Jesset
ps as I write this some gang members had shot to death a 6year girl as she held her Ice cream, Brave new world indeed!**%##@ It would not offend anyone ,If I were to say I doubt they have ever "listened" to good music.

[v russo]

Originally posted by william jesset:

Originally posted by Beyond Within:


Classical music requires knowledge to enjoy, it isnt just candy like most music is now. Most people cant appreciate a smooth modulation - or a beautiful counterpoint (people arent used to the idea that you need to pay attention to the musical themes and 'think' about whats going on). Its a lot of things really....<insert hodgepodge copy and paste of my earlier post>

Wm Jesset replies; Exactly! and
Thank You , as I've allowed myself to become disenchanted with this site via the fascination (56 hits) with the counterproductive pondering ,as to what Wagner et al HAS to do with negativity of the PAST. IE " you know who/what". As I will not
write the words, it just conjuring the 'demons' of the past and has NOTHING to do with MUSIC.
Thank you ,as we construct a dialogue concerning music.
brief generalisation of music;
it was once for initiates to religion(s),then it was a diversion/ part of the 'makeup' for
aristocrates, kings etc. Who not only enjoyed to hear,but played also, as a king was ,if not in fact, by 'ideal', well rounded in mind, body, and spirit. Hence a court composer to stay employed ,'created' more and more 'challenging' music for the 'King', who would be up to said challenge to 'hear' it all.
In part to this, the bar has been raised so in a way you either learn to hear with an aristocratic sensablity of you 'eat cake with the commoner's'.
No matter if classical is heard on MTV(which if you want to obsess as to what is "Obscene", how about 80 children in india? because no one had the courage.)or in a 'free'concert its moot as long as it is alive and well. I see nothing wrong with ALL types
of music if ITS BASED in HARMONY, 'harmonious'is the factor that must be present via "laws of nature' overtones etc.
Commerical music's (read Ganster rap) as opposed to Wagner who 'created' beautious
HARMOY were rap et all is a commercial abhorent form of corporate control'IE 'keepin it real(as in stupid).
This is fine, But I say this as a disclosure,IF you,whether it be ROCK,RAP,classical,reggae, etc. use this music to DEFINE who you are. As in dress,stance of morals,ie "Im a better person
because I listen to classics, or goth rock,thrash,hip hop, jazz, I think you miss the whole point.
Music is healing via HARMONY,which can make you better,
but only you have the power to BE a Better person. By example of your 'fruits' then maybe people will know or see more, Not by 'throttling' someone into submission' but by example.
Thank you for your indulgence and patience. Wm Jesset
ps as I write this some gang members had shot to death a 6year girl as she held her Ice cream, Brave new world indeed!**%##@ It would not offend anyone ,If I were to say I doubt they have ever "listened" to good music.

this is like beat poetry on acid!



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v russo

[urtextmeister]

I recently went to outdoor concert in my part of the world. I am also bewildered by the number of people who show up at these things. In this case it was part classical/ part jazz. Interestingly, most people began leaving during the jazz.

I think it is combination of free (very important) and being outdoors. Urban dwellers love to be outside. On a nice day, you can drive by certain neighborhoods and everybody is outside. Just sitting on their lawn chairs sipping a drink.

People especially love to be outside when there are other people outside. It's a cumulative thing. I don't know why. I have simply observed.

I know that a lot of indoor concerts are offered free and still have low attendance. It must be the outdoor thing.

Parades are a similar phenomenon. Thousands of people gather for little or no entertainment, but they love to be outside at the same time as others.

William,

I agree with your comment about aristocratic appreciation of music. Certainly Louis XIV was up on music and dance and insisted that everyone around him was equalled schooled. Does this mean that we need to be educated about classical music to appreciate it, or can one fully enjoy, let's say French Baroque music on first hearing, knowing nothing about it?

I'm not sure how I feel about this myself, but I'm interested in other opinions.

As far as the harmonic basis of music, I don't quite understand. The music of, lets say gangsta rap, is based on the most fundamental harmonic structures just as it based on the simplest poetic schemes. It would be serious twentieth century composers who avoided, perverted, and tried to invalidate the natural harmonic tendencies.

I am probably taking your comments about "harmony" too literally, but maybe you could explain.

[Frederica]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:

What keeps people away is mostly that we are told that all music is completely subjective, and that if we dont like it after a few listens, then we dont like it at all. Classical music requires knowledge to enjoy, it isnt just candy like most music is now. Most people cant appreciate a smooth modulation - or a beautiful counterpoint (people arent used to the idea that you need to pay attention to the musical themes and 'think' about whats going on). Its a lot of things really....<insert hodgepodge copy and paste of my earlier post>

I remember the time when I was made listen to Beethoven's music at school. I was around 14 and I loved it instantly. The same happened with other composers such as Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Schubert, Debussy, Orff, Distler, ... We also learned about themes and counterpoint and things and I was interested in all that as well. But I didn't need knowledge to love the music. The same teacher who had opened my heart to Beethoven and Bach spoke about and presented music by many other composers in the course of years. There were some I loved but there were quite a few I could never get through to.
How come?

[Chaszz]

Even in the good old days, during Handel's time, to get the king to show up you had to throw in fireworks also.

:-)

[william jesset]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
I recently went to outdoor concert in my part of the world. I am also bewildered by the number of people who show up at these things. In this case it was part classical/ part jazz. Interestingly, most people began leaving during the jazz.

I think it is combination of free (very important) and being outdoors. Urban dwellers love to be outside. On a nice day, you can drive by certain neighborhoods and everybody is outside. Just sitting on their lawn chairs sipping a drink.

People especially love to be outside when there are other people outside. It's a cumulative thing. I don't know why. I have simply observed.

I know that a lot of indoor concerts are offered free and still have low attendance. It must be the outdoor thing.

Parades are a similar phenomenon. Thousands of people gather for little or no entertainment, but they love to be outside at the same time as others.

William,

I agree with your comment about aristocratic appreciation of music. Certainly Louis XIV was up on music and dance and insisted that everyone around him was equalled schooled. Does this mean that we need to be educated about classical music to appreciate it, or can one fully enjoy, let's say French Baroque music on first hearing, knowing nothing about it?

I'm not sure how I feel about this myself, but I'm interested in other opinions.

As far as the harmonic basis of music, I don't quite understand. The music of, lets say gangsta rap, is based on the most fundamental harmonic structures just as it based on the simplest poetic schemes. It would be serious twentieth century composers who avoided, perverted, and tried to invalidate the natural harmonic tendencies.

I am probably taking your comments about "harmony" too literally, but maybe you could explain.

William writes back:
My Dear 'Urb';
Once more you raise the bar for me, thank you ,sir.
Perhaps the unitity of the 'Tribal'?
Which as I write,seems unique and strange as my 'observations'/experience says to me that modern people are normally distant to each other. Ie suspious. Yet there they are at the superbowl/roman games and yes FREE concerts.
Of course the outdoor/'Pastoral'is the biggest factor. Instead of actualy 'being in nature,getting dirty(thank god as these Xtreme gladiators really do thier best to muck up pristine locations,as the latest phenomenon is for 'mountain lions' to be scarified/shot for the 'sins' of cyclists/joggers who encroach on the lions territory haha). silly rabbit

As to the subject of the Music,just call me old fashioned (ha ha). The experiments of serious composers,Cage,etc leave me cold.
Not unlike the static of electronics ,as it was part of their experience,I question the effects on the cellular level of organic beings. This is a time of unparalleled technology, as genre "techo' illustrates.
As the quest/need for the new faster /whiter /briter plus the added need to make it now. Ie.FAME, simply put is possibly ONE way to explain the new music phenomenon.
Gangster rap,lowest form of word association
,(reason the Bard hasn't been Re-mixed?)
all the inovations of Cage via tape loops are now in the form of Sampled music.Artist as a 'turntablist', where a degree at Julliard awaits them who can afford the tuition(!).
Brave New world ? Yes the recent rant against TV as a tool of the obscene, is valid when you speak of education, as audio/video is taken to new extremes as a teaching tool for teachers who have not the energy/courage to teach youngters plus the overcrowded/"BLack Board Jungle' senario.The babysitter syndrome-place the subject in front of the cathode ray. An experiment in progress,but you can 'see' the results already as expressed in stupid. Also a universal truth as stupidity knows no bounderies as to race or station.My question ,is stupid in primitive society or is it prevalant in only Modern societies? Via the electric grid,all these symphonies created by candlelight(high art) and now the fire of Prometheus x1000 = low art. Hmm?
Also I expressed in a earlier post that fundamentals are easily taught(as opposed to "see you next semester" system) ITS the APPLICATION that can take years an who has time for that. Even in my generation the mindset was "If I don't make at 17, as a superstar, im a loser!" As to fundamentals, thats the reason that rock etal are Perfect 5ths as harmony(most simplistic explaination)with a scale that has no resolution tones other than the Tonic, IE no tricky 4ths or 7ths to deal with
As to the recent post demonstrates, for Fredrica saying how she loved "hearing' classical music,thats almost biblical in its scope,'those who hear will hear". For those that don't, possibly WE NEED to teach?TELL them that this is the link to CREATOR and man .As We cannot throttle anyone, as thier purpose is to balance our perspective. Its also a universal truth IE 'full circle' principle that sooner or later the order is reversed.
GOOD MUSIC will not/cannot die as it is a cosmic/ mathamatical law of overtones we just have to suffer the children who are lost.
Thank you for your dialoque sir
Your student William Jesset
Ps Like Louis we demand/request equals to be present "around us". Its been my Pleasure.

[william jesset]

Originally posted by Frederica:
I remember the time when I was made listen to Beethoven's music at school. I was around 14 and I loved it instantly. The same happened with other composers such as Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Schubert, Debussy, Orff, Distler, ... We also learned about themes and counterpoint and things and I was interested in all that as well. But I didn't need knowledge to love the music. The same teacher who had opened my heart to Beethoven and Bach spoke about and presented music by many other composers in the course of years. There were some I loved but there were quite a few I could never get through to.
How come?

William writes;

Dear sweet child,
Brave New World that has such People In'nt!
Your reponse/post has renewed my fervant hopes. Bless your Teacher for being a part of something much larger than just ourselves as human beings. As to the others( who are merely extrapolations of Bach, a mystic as described by Dr. Albert Schwitzer a great man in his own right) perhaps your heart will "open to them' when that time comes as it is,has been and always will be.
You are blessed you Have "Musica Humana"
Wm Jesset

[william jesset]

Originally posted by v russo:
this is like beat poetry on acid!

William Jesset replies:
praise on high. I thank you daddy-o