Are Musical Ideas Finite?

[william jesset]

Originally posted by
William,
"It has a Spirit of the Tragic/Comedy
inherit within. The pure Logic of Pythagorean
truth of polarity, it will make you cry and
at the same time marvel,inspire you with the
will to LIVE, the joy of thank you, for I am
alive to experience this mystery of you and
me here right now,and enrich me so that we BOTH rise to the occasion and be the noble
creatures that we are but refuse/fear to acknowledge."
urbtextmiester writes:
" ...just as a hypothetical, say that I have that very same experience while listening to Britney Spears sing, "Oops. I did it again." Do you consider that:
1. an impossibility.--
Not at all, or so I would hope that good transcends in many ways as possible through as many variables.(WJ)
2. A subjective similarity with an objective dissimilarity. - As I understand the question
Yes but with certain reservations as you will see.
3. irrelevant.- Thanks to you,I now have a understanding .Nothing is irrelevant per se,this is not to admonish, or ego driven just to disagree, this is a new understanding for me.
I had a preconceived notion/answer ready but
I see now that is nonsense in the cosmic sense ,that to attribute,to judge something
as irrevelant is EGO driven, for me to label
Ms Spears as irrevelant is to label myself as so. Is she not a part of my experience,the
cosmic whole that we all share at any one time.
So her body of work is not irrevelant because
-it defines what I hold dear as truth!
I want to say once more the level of consciousness that I behold on this site,
this is in referance to you, Ms Amalie and you ,Urbertextmeister,My dear friends,I cannot express how deeply grateful I am for allowing me to participate. Never during my life have I been able to express myself in these subject matters that hold a profound influence on my soul as art and music do.
To my great disapointment,I walk day to day through hordes of sad children that possess the stature of the adult and the sensibilities of hungry ghosts.I leave refreshed and renewed by these dialogs we've shared.

Beethoven Op 60 D Major concerto for violin
"can you hear the love of the natural world
it in? the Dynamics of polarity?Soft then
loud ,fast then slow? The new music is all groin and andrenaline rush, fueled
by profits.
Yes I see a contradiction here of the previous stance I took concerning what is revelant,but good music/art is the source of strength and compassion I draw upon.The noble in man, of kindness as this is the difference of man to the beast.As I carry on to do my best,to reinvent myself in progress,to further my understanding so as to the least, be an example to myself,if not to others and greet all with warmth and civility.I believe this is how great art/music uplifts.
A missing element in todays music,art, is a compassion for nature. We truly are in a science fiction world of High technology,low art.
Art is that which embraces the best of man.

"To borrow your interest in the ancient, wasn't the first music that we know about merely melody? The idea of combining melodies came later and the idea of even noticing the vertical "simultaneities" came later. It wasn't until Rameau came up with his treatise in 1722(?) that we got serious about chords".
I beg Ignorance to this ,what is this "serious' you speak of? Guitarists have dealt
with chords since the late 15th century.
And I recall the Neaderthals left behind a
bone flute with 3 diatonic notes,so that is
the early melody,but more astounding is the
postulation that because of the overtone
series,and the triad that is produced,these primitives didn't need to be schooled in
math to intuitively find the right notes,
I just wonder what happened to the prototypes?
"Fugue, it seems to me, is a ubiquitous process in music because the melody is so prominent and the chords, while important, are always a result of it".
My previous thread was vaque on this,I just tried to explain possibly why no melodic movtives happen much more due to the fact of scales being used as a source opposed to Divine "inspiritus"
"Here's a nod to the website we are on:
Isn't Beethoven all about scales (as well as chords)"?
Yes ,the tools, not the sublime result,
His Music

I Thank You for the profound dialoque,
Ms Amalie and Ubermiester,my dear friends for
none of this would be possible for me to experience without you, Wm Jesset

[urtextmeister]

William,

I share your delight in being able "talk smart" with others about Beethoven and other musical topics. You are a deep thinker and have an individual voice. It is always interesting to hear what you have to say.

You may be right about guitarists or lutenists thinking in terms of chords early on--are you talking about some sort of tablature notation? My point was merely that the earliest music notated was chant which was a single melody and which eventually had other melodies added to it, not so much for the vertical result, but merely to further glorify melody. As sacred and secular music developed, it was all about combining melodies. The only thought given to chords was avoiding occurences of dissonance, which no longer would sound dissonant to us, by the way.

Rameau, I think, was the first one to start talking about the FUNCTION of chords...

I love the remark about "groin and adrenanline rush". That could almost describe Wagner as well as Britney Spears.

Steppenwolf,

I think I have always held a similar opinion of pop music. Personally, if I listen to too much of it, I begin to feel something is lacking. It would be like eating nothing but refined sugar. Sooner or later my body would crave a good helping of broccoli or spinach.

But there are many who only listen to pop music and that is there only musical sustanence. They are content with it. It serves their needs. Is our experience better than theirs? I know you have already answered that and I think I agree--probably yes. I wonder if that is an elitist and chauvenistic response.

Getting back to the original topic, "is music finite?," pop music has succeeded in giving new life to very simple melodic ideas. Often a pop song is built on a melodic hook of only four or five notes--diatonic, of course. And yet the work that is created is totally different, world's away from the classical music that preceded it. Hasn't pop music, as a style, given new life to the simple diatonic melody?
Serious electronic music--buzzes, blips, and squawks--never seemed to catch on. This style often reduces the importance of pitch and tonality and would therefore give us many more possibilities, but isn't it more virtuosic what pop music has done--retain the same basic principles of melody and harmony, but create a whole new aesthetic, a whole new world of possibilities...

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
But there are many who only listen to pop music and that is there only musical sustanence. They are content with it. It serves their needs. Is our experience better than theirs? I know you have already answered that and I think I agree--probably yes. I wonder if that is an elitist and chauvenistic response.

I think our experience is better than theirs. And I can say that because I have experienced BOTH. I have experienced the excitment of pop music, rock concerts, mosh-pits, etc., not long ago either (I am now 24) and there still is a lot of pop music I enjoy (albeit now only in moderation, or it can get irritating). So I understand the appeal. But I have also experienced, first hand, the thrills of classical music, and I can testify that the experience does in fact go far deeper into the soul. Rock music can be physically invigorating, but mentally/emotionally much of it is shallow and empty - body without soul. More melodic pop can give a quick hit, a quick 'high', but it quickly wares off. There is nothing to compare with the life-enhancing, soul-transforming, uplifting experience of classical music, that has truly enriched my life, and has become like a quasi-religious devotion. Popular music just can't do that.

Another thing, is that pop/rock music is best enjoyed if it is HEARD, rather than LISTENED TO. It is a purely passive experience. Much rock sounds fantastic if you passively absorb it like a sponge, and just let it filter into your ears as background noise (like at a pub or nightclub), but if you actively LISTEN to it, attentively, critically, then it seems all feathers with no meat, all wizz-bang show without substance, and so ultimately unsatisfying. By contrast, classic music, if it is properly to be enjoyed, must be actively listened to.

As for your comment about elitism ... what's wrong with elitism? If by 'elitism' we mean unearned merit, shallow pretence, etc, then it is to be rejected. But if by 'elitism' we mean something of the highest quality, then it is a good thing. As the famous conductor Furtwaengler said, "In life - democracy, in art - aristocracy".

[william jesset]

Gentleman,
A pleasure once more to read your respective
posts as both are valid assessments.
Simply put Pop is a product for a youth
market,find a star with the look,make a product/recording, use then ,lose them.
Since the first recording,this is the critera
-to make money.
Cinema started this protocol, of star as product.You name the artist either Music or
Film and you begin to see the pattern until the present day, Ms Spears is a current product,soon to be replaced by Ms H.Duff.
The Monkees syndrome etc etc. The Hollywood
star machine,is heartless in its hunger
for souls,..That's why there is no soul, they've been traded for glory of celebrity..
Poor Ms Brittney, a puppet, and all those that came before her.
Yes Pop deals in physical. A lower energy ,not to say there isn't shades of gray in between cerebral and physical, but from the shareholders view Ms Duff is selling better than Ludwig.
Being young once I've done it all .
As I developed myself,you begin see much grander schemes than what is told I should buy or do or what you've come to accept as fact.
I'm way past that youth market ,as I don't need a sports vehicle/toys to validate my worth, with 6 pack abs or to audition for fame.
This thread is not about me, its about bigger things- HOW many times have you seen a burned out creature on your way to work,sitting in filth with a substance abuse problem all because he/she subscribed to the adage "SEX and drugs and rock n roll ? Lost souls?
My generation of ROCK N ROLLers has seen alot of waste and before that was Bebop Jazz and All forms of pop music that came before as the "devils music",something about what the
Pythagoreans say about "the wrong modes".
Just keep an open mind to all possiblites,
I myself am so tired of hearing the ROLLING
STONES screaming for satisfaction/ (distraction?), when there is much more to be experienced/tasted. They keep serving it up and people just love it-same people who eat Bugs and filth so as to be on TV-
I got news for you,You're a star already
look within yourself.
Graffitti on a Eygptian tomb before Christ
said "What is wrong with these kids today"(?)
So its all moot, but what I sense from the both of you >STEP& URB is you grow or you don't.
10 years from now even you will question your taste as to even what are listening to right
now and that is the "magic" of life/progress,
as you see it all around you (example:technology),
things are in flux and soon you will 'discover' you are too.
What I like to say is,vist the mega Record
chain and no way could I ever listen to it
all,I wish I could hear all and read every book worthy, so you listen to what you like'and or afford-like the radio(?)
So as I sat in a classroom re-inventing myself,as the professor plays Beethoven,as I cried tears from the overwhelming experience, it was also tears of loss as I realize I have cheated myself of a higher music/source. The Chills right ? Ever feel that as the sublime
goes up and down your back as something higher comes in and exorcises the "corperate"
demons(and this is not mere metaphor).
Listen you decide ,something is
happening here THAT is much more than mere
"heaven and Earth,Horatio" .
You my friends are closer than most-
"Enlightenment is humanity's departure from it's self-imposed immaturity.This immaturity is self-imposed when it's cause is not lack of intelligence but failure of courage to think without someone else's guidance.DARE to KNOW! That is the slogan of Enlightenment."

Immanuel Kant, 1783

Yes my dear friends count me in as an elitist- as it applies to "Steps" parameters
of "touching the soul"
I look forward to learn more
Wm

[urtextmeister]

Thanks for the excellent comments.

I appreciate your positive spin on the term 'elitism', but I think there will always be a negative connotation as well. Some days I do feel like I can shun pop culture and wallow in the glory of Beethoven, etc. But some days I feel like I have an obligation to reconcile my own artistic vision with the world around me.

I think of the composers who were able to incorporate some element of folk music into their work. Bartok was maybe more successful at doing this authentically. Chopin always had the heart and soul of the Polish people in his music. Gershwin was able to (somewhat successfully incorporate Jazz into symphonic works). And of course, Beethoven.

Beethoven was constantly reconciling between himself and the world around him; between the sacred and profane, etc.,etc.

Maybe you are right. We should cast aside the popular culture that we are bombarded with, but I feel like, as artist, maybe I need to acknowledge it and let it have some effect on me.

Heck. Maybe it's not worth it.

[spaceray]

Oh would that we could divest ourselves of popular culture! Not possible ,it is everywhere,on the streets in the workplace at the shops,the dentist, the doctor. I would have to go and live in Nowhere miles from anything to avoid it.I dread the day when I am ducktaped to a chair in a facility for the elderly and they are playing Bruce Springsteen at picture rattleing volumes.

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by william jesset:


You my friends are closer than most-
"Enlightenment is humanity's departure from it's self-imposed immaturity.This immaturity is self-imposed when it's cause is not lack of intelligence but failure of courage to think without someone else's guidance.DARE to KNOW! That is the slogan of Enlightenment."

Immanuel Kant, 1783

That is a fantastic quote. Can you give me the exact reference of it?

[william jesset]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
[B] That is a fantastic quote. Can you give me the exact reference of it?

Stepp,Space,Urb
My Dear friends,
Thank you for your intelligent insights and for your understanding.
Truth be Known -
Have you ever been to, say, a bookstore,
library,or the Music store and something
literally "jumps' out at you?
Such was the Beethoven biography from the public library that recently landed in my hands. As I opened the
tome THAT quote by Kant was the first words
I read !! That day I came to THIS site, and
I as am being 'enlightmented' from my association with YOUR minds, I'm in tears
right now as the magic of life revels itself
to me,again and again ,if you are willing to partake of it.
NOTHING is by CHANCE, it is meant to be,I've worked my way to this very moment. Whether I turn left or right depends on MY thinking or not thinking and the outcome is I might have
been here sooner.
Thats a metaphor for yes there is small variables within the framework of time and space. We are all interconnected whether
YOUR actions or MY actions brought me here
to this point(moot). The truth is what I except as right now. As I played my part to this time,my character has been as a Boorish human child, "you looking at me' type of hoodlum.
Reactionary type out of fear. Fear of how you percieve me etc. Quite ironic once I've
excepted the fact the I have known the truth
all along. Was interacting with a society
of lost souls( administator/teacher types) that caused this or was it me that was lost.
Moot, the important factor is, as I treat
the rest of those who come in contact with
me everyday I shall treat them with compassion and no expections for I've only had LOW ones that were easy granted. As the experiment has progressed to were I can review this data to see that conclusion.
As I give more,just a smile ,a good morning,all within my power to grant,my
life is at a all time high.
These coversations are a part of that, if not the pinnacale.
I shall research more into Kant and hopefully have something concrete to discuss
as opposed to my new age rambles. Ha
Pop vs Classical,as in low vs High,
is not my just mine or your opinion. It is the logic of the comos in Pythagorean terms of polarity- Black white, (talk to a racist about this concept one cannot be without the other), Good bad ,low high, as one cannot exist without the other and all the variables in between. So it is with our beloved art,one has to be as apart of the other or there will be no referance point. This is where FREE WILL comes to play and apprecation. I chose
to know/hear more,and as to the others
I can't force them to learn more. I can only
be a gracious egoless example of the power of high art/thought. Elitist as Example
Thank you once again for this opportunity to express my thoughts
Wm Jesset