Are Musical Ideas Finite?

[Amalie]

Welcome William, and thanks for your stimulating thoughts.


Wasn't it St. Augstine who said that negative emotions do not exist in themselves, but are really just a dimunition of positive quality such as happiness, joy, etc.

I do agree that they are both intimately interlinked. In drama you can have a brand known as tragi-comedy, that is to say a drama that verges or involves both. So far as music is concerned I have always been fascinated by the following posers:

1. Does music exist when no one is listening.
2. What is music in relationship with the everyday world.
3.What is the relationship between the written and printed note before being translated into played music.
4.In Nietzsche's words - What happens when the music stops.


In a sense I think we all hear music for the first time when we hear a familiar piece played again. Beethoven in particular for me, it is like re-creating anew.

On listening to Respighi, The Pines of Rome, he re-creates or puts us in touch with the ancient spirit of Rome, which makes one think in a philosophical sense whether that spirit is in fact an eternal one, like the spirit of joy that Beethoven puts us in touch with in his great 9th symphony.


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~ Unsterbliche Geliebte ~

[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited 07-08-2004).]

[urtextmeister]

William,

That was a quite a brilliant paragraph(?) but the lack of punctation along with the strange column formation made me kind of lose it towards the end. I found myself questioning whether I wanted another pop tart instead of concentrating on your words. Maybe you could reformulate some of those ideas in a dumbed down version.

Amalie,

Very provocative questions. I should get on with my daily work, but I can't resist having a stab at those philosophical tidbits.

1. Does music exist when no one is listening?

This is a more complex question than I originally thought. I would say yes. I notice you didn't ask: does music exist if no one is playing it?
With your question, I assume that music is being produced or has been produced and then it becomes a question of whether the thing itself exists or it only exists because someone is there to appreciate it.

Music and maybe all works of art in their obvious manifestations are at least as fragile and delicate as life itself. During catastrophes like World War II, art is destroyed. Paintings, buildings, maybe even musical manuscripts. Even within a persons life, there may be times when an appreciation of art is no longer possible: extreme illness, poverty, mental distress.

But something always remains after art has been created, doesn't it? If we, as humanity, have enriched our spirit and we have proven that we have the ability to create art, isn't that an eternal truth of some kind.

[william jesset]

Originally posted by Amalie:
Welcome William, and thanks for your stimulating thoughts.


Wasn't it St. Augstine who said that negative emotions do not exist in themselves, but are really just a dimunition of positive quality such as happiness, joy, etc.

I do agree that they are both intimately interlinked. In drama you can have a brand known as tragi-comedy, that is to say a drama that verges or involves both. So far as music is concerned I have always been fascinated by the following posers:

1. Does music exist when no one is listening.
2. What is music in relationship with the everyday world.
3.What is the relationship between the written and printed note before being translated into played music.
4.In Nietzsche's words - What happens when the music stops.


In a sense I think we all hear music for the first time when we hear a familiar piece played again. Beethoven in particular for me, it is like re-creating anew.

On listening to Respighi, The Pines of Rome, he re-creates or puts us in touch with the ancient spirit of Rome, which makes one think in a philosophical sense whether that spirit is in fact an eternal one, like the spirit of joy that Beethoven puts us in touch with in his great 9th symphony.

Thank you Amalie - for your gracious welcome -and your insights
" Music of the Spheres", again may I invoke Pythagoras, as he postulated
that each planet 'creates' a sound that
via inertia? produces a sound so great that mere mortals cannot hear it,the reason being
since it is/it has been since time/universe
began and it is constant like the A/C or the
leaking faucet ,one becomes accustom to his
enviroment and that stimulus is hence removed as it would truly drive one mad.
Unlike the blare of the traffic roar,
each planet produces different consonant
intervals/tones that added up to the PYTHAGORIAN scale-
I would like to express my thoughts as to
music and everyday world- and I know this is not the proper place for opinion's and I beg
for your patience but is not nature in itself musical? The birds, wind, and rain etc and of course I'm biased as I live for the experience of Music. Everyday we each have an opportunity to be musical in how we conduct oneself in the world,polarity of
consonant or dissonance in one actions to one
another."We need to be more Musical".
Emotion translated to the Stave is Music composed and the performance is the childs
first steps full of joy,and then the Composer in some cases no longer takes the time nor interest to be concerned about the captured
result and is more aware and fully committed
then to the present moment, which contains the freedom of the "creative force" or the lack of it.
True Music /True Art is an experience to be shared, not judged; as(our) praise cannot make it better nor will blame make it worse,and I cannot think of a world without Music/ Truth.
The reference to tragi-comedy is timely as
what greater than to experience both simultaneously and share the experience with others as we laugh
and cry at the same time and it need not be
at the expense of a ticket, for is not life that drama which enfolds us every moment in a new chapter/scene?
I Thank You for your insights -I'm
enlightened
especially the St.Augustine "diminition"
of postive, that is another step on the path to truth
Wm

[Amalie]

William,
Many thanks for your sustaining food for thought.
I am taken with the idea that the music of the spheres is a given constant which we rather carelessly take for granted and if it was taken away we could well go mad.
You make the point by contrasting this with the din of modern life, traffic, etc. which again is a constant but is an artificial
addition of mans and not from nature and how we would all be benefited if it were removed. So one is a beautiful natural addition to the universe which we cannot do without and the other is a jarring man made addition we could well do without.
I am fascinated with your comments about Pythagoras, whom I must confess I only knew in connection with school day maths. Come to think of it, his ideas must have been current in Elizabethan times, because I recall in Shakespeare's play 'Twelfth Night' where Malvolio is imprisoned and the clown says, it is a prison of darkness and ignorance that he is in, and goes on to say that he can release him from this darkness if he can tell him what Pythagoras's views on the transmigration of souls are. - A very humerous and fascinating passage in the play..

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~ Unsterbliche Geliebte ~

[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited 07-09-2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Amalie:
I am fascinated with your comments about Pythagoras, whom I must confess I only knew in connection with school day maths.

Yes Pythagoras plays an important part in the history of western music - he 'discovered' the ratios of the harmonic series (2:1 octave, 3:2 fifth, 4:3 fourth etc) and was particularly fascinated by the 2:3 relationship which produces the Dominant, and used this to create a cycle of 5ths. However he wasn't the first to figure this out - there is evidence that the Chinese got there 4000 years ago!

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 07-09-2004).]

[urtextmeister]

William,

Not the proper place for opinions? This forum is non-stop avalanche of opinions.

Just one question. What is this true music/true art of which thou speakest? Music/truth? How do feel about bad music? or so-so music?

I am a great lover of sounds in nature, but some loud birds can really get on my nerves (especially early in the morning when you are trying to sleep). There was a chipmunk yesterday near my studio that drove me half insane with his incessant chirping!

[william jesset]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
William,

That was a quite a brilliant paragraph(?) but the lack of punctation along with the strange column formation made me kind of lose it towards the end. I found myself questioning whether I wanted another pop tart instead of concentrating on your words. Maybe you could reformulate some of those ideas in a dumbed down version.

Amalie,

Very provocative questions. I should get on with my daily work, but I can't resist having a stab at those philosophical tidbits.

1. Does music exist when no one is listening?

This is a more complex question than I originally thought. I would say yes. I notice you didn't ask: does music exist if no one is playing it?
With your question, I assume that music is being produced or has been produced and then it becomes a question of whether the thing itself exists or it only exists because someone is there to appreciate it.

Music and maybe all works of art in their obvious manifestations are at least as fragile and delicate as life itself. During catastrophes like World War II, art is destroyed. Paintings, buildings, maybe even musical manuscripts. Even within a persons life, there may be times when an appreciation of art is no longer possible: extreme illness, poverty, mental distress.

But something always remains after art has been created, doesn't it? If we, as humanity, have enriched our spirit and we have proven that we have the ability to create art, isn't that an eternal truth of some kind.

My Dear Friend-
My apologies, My writing skills are poor,
and as for the Computer,I'm fortunate to be
able to navigate this far.
If you could please intruct me or have any suggestions as to how I may improve either
I would forever be in your service.
As for your reply to Ms Amalie's post, I
would like to only say bravo! I agree wholeheartly with your comments and I refer you to my last post,with the added extrapolation that Music as with any Art need none to behold it,possess it, or clap hands to articulate appreciation. It is the 'Creative'act"the eternal truth"(sic) that perhaps caused the first primitive to produce music or a cave painting whilst the rest fought for sustenance. Granted a very romantic notion for as like the primitive we also need fight for our sustenance.
My only referance, being that information
that is available to me, I ask was not also
Beethoven's priority "Music for Music's" sake
even after his loss of faculties?
As for appreciation, it is part of the human
psyche,the higher part that differentiates
us from lower forms of life. So that being
said,may I extend mine to you for your
enrichment of my spirit,and yes,music is all
around,whether preformed or via nature as a part of a cosmic truth.
Thank you for your time and my fervent
wish is to be a worthy constituent of this forum
Wm Jesset

[william jesset]

How many goodly creatures are there here.
How Beauteous Mankind is!
O Brave New World
That has such people in't!

My Dear Amalie,
I quote this sublime passage as you are more
astute than I, to NOT hear "Music Mundana"
would be reason to go mad and not as I so haplessly presented.
The sound so exquisite we cannot hear ,a
cosmic music that Philo of Alexandria said that Moses had heard when he received the Sacred Tablets on Mt Sinai and the last sound
(St. Augustine)a dying man will hear as all is revealed to him as the cosmic reality of the highest.
It is the seasons,the rhythem of nature,and
governs all temporal cycles.
The "Timaeus", Plato(a Pythagorean),
explains the creation of the universe as the math of proportion and harmony into "one visible being,containing within itself all living beings of the same natural order"
Plato then when to describe the "transmigration of souls"(sic)from this dimension into the next,heaven?,and if you were of "Musica Humana" or a 'Musica Instrumemtalis" you were quite certain to be placed onto the next level of the cosmos, Ie. not to return to earth to suffer the "slings and arrows of outrageous misfortune" in this plane of time and space once more or until you played it forthright.
"Such Harmony is in Immortal souls,
But while this muddy vesture of decay
Doth grossly close it in,we cannot hear it"
The Bard? but what scene/act ? I beg ignorance,can you help?
The profounditity of "Musica Mundana" was so
great to science/arts that all laws of
nature were attributed to it.
Briefly the root cause of illness,anger,fear,
worry,etc etc. all human weakness can be
attributed to your being out of balance,your personal "Musica Humana" in relationship to
"Musica Mundana" the music of the spheres.
Our own prisons of darkness?
Speak of a repast for thought-
O brave new world- I Thank You kindly
I'm forever in your debt for this dialog,
Until the next juncture
Wm Jesset

[Amalie]

William,

I thank you for your interesting thoughts and explorations.
So as not stray too far though, to lose sight of Beethoven here; How do you or others think that Beethoven links up with this fascinating concept of the 'Harmoni Mundi' ?
I agree that music is the ultimate art and to which the universe moves in accordance with its rhythm and harmony. Is this what Beethoven is saying with the dance rhythm, say in sympnony no.7?

*

The quote you refer to William, is from, 'The Merchant of Venice' Act V Scene 1. Begins > How sweet the moonlight sleeps upon this bank.

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~ Unsterbliche Geliebte ~

[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited 07-10-2004).]

[urtextmeister]

Yeah, and how do feel about bad music?

By the way, all of this self-deprecation is very refreshing for an internet forum.

[william jesset]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by urtextmeister:
[B]Yeah, and how do feel about bad music?


Thank you,sir,
Please see my last very long diatribe as to scales, music and education in the post "why does music have an effect upon us", as I already demonstrated so well,I've deconstructed the purpose of this forum
which is to speak of and learn more of Beethoven,the "Immortal Beloved" for his legacy to us and Art.
Not to fear "methinks I've played myself out"
Please, have some refreshment before hand.
sincrely Wm Jesset

[william jesset]

Thank you ,
For taking the time to share my post and I'm
honored that you ask me my Opinon.
You made clear to me the answer I shall give. The link. Yes precisely that,he is part of the whole as everything is ,as it always has and forever shall be.
For say just the people that vist this site
Beethoven,the man,the Composer has enriched
them,otherwise they/we might be watching the tele instead and not "thinking' such thoughts as we've shared. He is a part of the cosmic whole,part of the interaction of the now as are we(all of us)are interacting in the now as the Harmoni Mundi is interacting with us as you read this. Yes thats what he's and all
of those blessed mortal/artiste though the pain of their lives transend time and space to touch us. Yes that is what he is saying
"the dance" and so much more that with a childlike awe I look forward to learn when the time for that lesson comes.
Beethoven is one of many mystics the world has seen fit to carry the burden so that we
may learn to be noble.
Art as the Ultimite Truth of mankind least
we stumble in the dark
I Thank you for this part to the puzzle.
Wm Jesset

[KyleC]

Steppen apply your thinking to anything else in life and u will see that the answer is discovery. or atleast I think it is.

[urtextmeister]

William,

I always eat my breakfast WHILE checking the internet. That way I accomplish two necessary evils at once.

I did check the other thread and found a description of your views on good and bad music. Thanks for the tip. This, I believe, sort of sums up what is good music:

"It has a Spirit of the Tragic/Comedy
inherit within. The pure Logic of Pythagorean
truth of polarity, it will make you cry and
at the same time marvel,inspire you with the
will to LIVE, the joy of thank you, for I am
alive to experience this mystery of you and
me here right now,and enrich me so that we BOTH rise to the occasion and be the noble
creatures that we are but refuse/fear to acknowledge."

I more or less agree with that description, but, just as a hypothetical, say that I have that very same experience while listening to Britney Spears sing, "Oops. I did it again." Do you consider that:
1. an impossibility.
2. A subjective similarity with an objective dissimilarity.
3. irrelevant.

Actually, I would like to withdraw that last option. Of course, it is irrelevant, but I wanted to feel you out about whether there is absolute value to music or if it is only valuable because of our experience. I think this is still somewhat following Amalie's questions.

I found your ideas about scales and chords very interesting! And unusual!
To borrow your interest in the ancient, wasn't the first music that we know about merely melody? The idea of combining melodies came later and the idea of even noticing the vertical "simultaneities" came later. It wasn't until Rameau came up with his treatise in 1722(?) that we got serious about chords.
Fugue, it seems to me, is a ubiquitous process in music because the melody is so prominent and the chords, while important, are always a result of it.

Here's a nod to the website we are on:
Isn't Beethoven all about scales (as well as chords)?

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:

"It has a Spirit of the Tragic/Comedy
inherit within. The pure Logic of Pythagorean
truth of polarity, it will make you cry and
at the same time marvel,inspire you with the
will to LIVE, the joy of thank you, for I am
alive to experience this mystery of you and
me here right now,and enrich me so that we BOTH rise to the occasion and be the noble
creatures that we are but refuse/fear to acknowledge."

I more or less agree with that description, but, just as a hypothetical, say that I have that very same experience while listening to Britney Spears sing, "Oops. I did it again." Do you consider that:
1. an impossibility.
2. A subjective similarity with an objective dissimilarity.
3. irrelevant.

Allow me to answer that question, if I may.

If you have the exact same uplifting experience as described, while listening to a Britney Spears song, then great. The experience to which we refer is largely subjective anyway (but not in the sense of being unreal, or imaginary, or relativistic), so if Britney does it for you, like Beethoven does it for others, then the music is of as much value to you as Beethoven is to others. But, in reality, I doubt the music could ever produce such feelings.

Much pop music is capable of being uplifting, and enriching, when it is melodic (a lot of it isn't). A melodic pop song works on the same principles of tonality as classical music. It is just simpler and less complex, and relies very heavily on repitition, and over-emphasised beat. But if it is melodic it can be uplifting as all music can be. But it generally cannot - and this is the crux of the matter - rise to the heights and plunge to the depths of the great classics, since it is so much more basic. Only music at its very highest, as a supreme art, can vouchsafe such lofty and enlightened sentiments as described above.