That topic again

[Chaszz]

I'm listening to Schumann's Symphony No. 4. The other day I listened to Schubert's Symphony No. 9. If Beethoven did not strongly influence the early Romantics, why does their orchestration sound so much like his? As compared, say, with later Romantics like Liszt, Wagner, Bruckner, Brahms, whose orchestrations do not sound like his? (leaving aside for a moment the specialized topic of second themes and modulations into the flat keys rather than the sharp keys).

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 06-30-2004).]

[mrfixit]

Rember Schubert wasnt famous during his life time. His 9th symphony was only performed once untill Schumann discovered it about 30 years later. If you compare Schuberts early works to his later ones you can clearly see Beethovens influence. I think i have listend to enough Beethoven to confidently say that its Beethovens early and middle periods that influenced most romantic composers.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I'm listening to Schumann's Symphony No. 4. The other day I listened to Schubert's Symphony No. 9. If Beethoven did not strongly influence the early Romantics, why does their orchestration sound so much like his? As compared, say, with later Romantics like Liszt, Wagner, Bruckner, Brahms, whose orchestrations do not sound like his? (leaving aside for a moment the specialized topic of second themes and modulations into the flat keys rather than the sharp keys).

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 06-30-2004).]

Firstly, obviously Beethoven influenced composers who came immediately after him - Schumann and Schubert both had great admiration for him. Interesting that you refer to Schumann's orchestration which is generally regarded as his achilles heel so one hopes he didn't learn that from Beethoven! I don't know which version of his 4th you are referring to, but the later revised one is typical of Schumann's thick, doubling woodwind sound and general miscalculations that are rare in Beethoven. The 2 usual criticisms of Beethoven in this regard are the recapitulation of the 8th symphony 1st mov, and the development in the triple concerto.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 06-30-2004).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:
Firstly, obviously Beethoven influenced composers who came immediately after him - Schumann and Schubert both had great admiration for him. Interesting that you refer to Schumann's orchestration which is generally regarded as his achilles heel so one hopes he didn't learn that from Beethoven! I don't know which version of his 4th you are referring to, but the later revised one is typical of Schumann's thick, doubling woodwind sound and general miscalculations that are rare in Beethoven. The 2 usual criticisms of Beethoven in this regard are the recapitulation of the 8th symphony 1st mov, and the development in the triple concerto.

I believe it was the early version, but the disk info is unavailable now. In any case, my point is that these works show a profound B. influence, in orchestration and in romantic (with a small 'r') feeling, on the progenitors of the Romantic movement in music and thus thru them on the whole movement. Once again I am nibbling at the trunk, like a beaver.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I believe it was the early version, but the disk info is unavailable now. In any case, my point is that these works show a profound B. influence, in orchestration and in romantic (with a small 'r') feeling, on the progenitors of the Romantic movement in music and thus thru them on the whole movement. Once again I am nibbling at the trunk, like a beaver.

In the words of Charles Rosen (eminent musicologist and author of the classic 'the classical style') who explains it superbly:

"In the music of his younger contemporaries (with the exception of Schubert) and of the generation that followed his death, his work whilst admired and loved, is hardly a vital force; not until Brahms and the later operas of Wagner will it play a significant role. The prestige of his music blinds us to this fact, in the same way indeed, that it blinded the musicians of the first half of the 19th century. Only An die ferne geliebte played an important part in the musical development of the 1830s and 40s. The rest of the achievement was not an inspiration but a dead weight in the style of those who immediately followed him.

The symphonies and sonatas of Schumann are comstantly embarrassed by the example of Beethoven; their splendour breaks through his influence, but never starts from it. All that is most interesting in the next generation is a reaction against Beethoven, or an attempt to ignore him: all that is weakest submits to his power and pays him the emptiest and most sincere of homages."



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'Man know thyself'

[mrfixit]

Schumann dislike Beethovens later works so mcuh, he considered him mad. He thoguht he finally went mad due to being dear, and that his later works clearly showed this. Its ironic that Schumann is the one that went insane.

[Peter]

Originally posted by mrfixit:
Schumann dislike Beethovens later works so mcuh, he considered him mad. He thoguht he finally went mad due to being dear, and that his later works clearly showed this. Its ironic that Schumann is the one that went insane.

I'm not aware that this represents Schumann's views at all.


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'Man know thyself'

[spaceray]

Originally posted by mrfixit:
Schumann dislike Beethovens later works so mcuh, he considered him mad.

No this isn't so Robert and Clara admired Beethoven greatly .Clara played Beethoven at her concerts.Robert might have played Beethoven also if he hadn't ruined his hands in some nasty finger stretching devise.
Robert conducted Beethoven ,I can't remember what but he did not generally enjoy conducting and concentrated on teaching and composing.
Muriel

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:
I'm not aware that this represents Schumann's views at all.

I think it was Schubert that had difficulty with the later works of Beethoven, not Schumann.

[ruudp]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
I think it was Schubert that had difficulty with the later works of Beethoven, not Schumann.

Right..
As I recall Schubert studied under the tutorage of Antonio Salieri who bestowed upon schubert a dislikening of the late masterpieces of Beethoven, Schubert even wrote in his diary that beethoven composed in a Bizarre way::This bizare way connects and changes the meaning of the tragical versus the comical, the pleasurable versus the disgustfull, the heroic versus howling, and the seriousness versus the stupiditous.
His *beethovens* music does not please people but rather Angers them, it doesen't make them want to pray but laugh instead.

These were the views salieri poisoned Schubert with..Schubert however remained *deep in his heart* a advid Beethoven fan and was even one the bearers of the coffin beethoved layed in.

Regards,
Ruud

[Rod]

Originally posted by ruudp:

Right..
As I recall Schubert studied under the tutorage of Antonio Salieri who bestowed upon schubert a dislikening of the late masterpieces of Beethoven, Schubert even wrote in his diary that beethoven composed in a Bizarre way::This bizare way connects and changes the meaning of the tragical versus the comical, the pleasurable versus the disgustfull, the heroic versus howling, and the seriousness versus the stupiditous.
His *beethovens* music does not please people but rather Angers them, it doesen't make them want to pray but laugh instead.

These were the views salieri poisoned Schubert with..Schubert however remained *deep in his heart* a advid Beethoven fan and was even one the bearers of the coffin beethoved layed in.

Regards,
Ruud

Are you saying Schubert was not man enough to state his own mind even in his diary? Ironically to my ears much of Schubert's music sounds extremely bizarre!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[mrfixit]

Originally posted by spaceray:
No this isn't so Robert and Clara admired Beethoven greatly .Clara played Beethoven at her concerts.Robert might have played Beethoven also if he hadn't ruined his hands in some nasty finger stretching devise.
Robert conducted Beethoven ,I can't remember what but he did not generally enjoy conducting and concentrated on teaching and composing.
Muriel

Hmmmmm. Never said he didnt admire him. He just thought he went mad in later life. He didnt like Beethovens later works that much. The infomation i have might be wrong though.

[Rod]

Originally posted by mrfixit:
Hmmmmm. Never said he didnt admire him. He just thought he went mad in later life. He didnt like Beethovens later works that much. The infomation i have might be wrong though.

Tchaikovsky though the late quartets had 'glimmers and nothing more, the rest is chaos.'

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin