note-worthy?

[Geratlas]

Fellow Beethovenians! I think many of you, I alike, welcome a topic concerning the contents of either the sketchbooks or conversation books, and to discuss these here. For this I am initially of little help alone, and will so, of(f?) course, be indebted (and highly appreciative) to the members and moderators that are willing to share insight in these matters (which I only possess marginally, myself).
I Would duly be glad if someone could explain the quantity and constitution of these books a bit closer. --- Noteworthy?
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>Freund [G] zu sein<

[Peter]

With regard to sketchbooks, 33 desk books (oblong format for indoors usually in ink) and 37 pocketbooks (usually in pencil) are listed, with around 1000 loose leaves. The first known pocket book dates from 1815.
Prior to 1798 Beethoven did not use bound pocketbooks and there are around 200 leaves from this earlier period surviving. The surviving loose leaves are housed in two collectios named after 2 collectors, the Kafka in London and the Fischhof in Berlin. At the auction in Nov 1827 (after Beethoven's death) 2/3 of the books were bought by the publisher Artaria for a small amount (what wouldn't we give today!!) and though many are in public collections many are in private hands and inaccessible.

The conversation books date from 1818 until the last on 5th march 1827. There are around 137 books however Schindler who owned the books after Beethoven's death may have destroyed many of them (around 400 were said to have existed), and he certainly forged many entries - all the conversations between Beethoven and Schindler 1819/1820 are fake. There are gaps - nothing from March 1818 - 1819, and nothing between sep 1820 and june 1822.


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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 06-22-2004).]

[Sorrano]

A good starting point might be the book, "Two Beethoven Sketchbooks" by Gustav Nottebohm.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:


There are around 137 books however Schindler who owned the books after Beethoven's death may have destroyed many of them (around 400 were said to have existed), and he certainly forged many entries - all the conversations between Beethoven and Schindler 1819/1820 are fake. There are gaps - nothing from March 1818 - 1819, and nothing between sep 1820 and june 1822.

It was probably out of embarrassment that
Schindler destroyed all those books maybe about what corresponded between him and Beethoven. Can you imagine if that were to happen today with some famous/celebrity person? What a shame!!



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
It was probably out of embarrassment that
Schindler destroyed all those books maybe about what corresponded between him and Beethoven. Can you imagine if that were to happen today with some famous/celebrity person? What a shame!!

The falsifications (150 of them) have been shown to be largely self-serving; to bolster his claim of having enjoyed a relationship with Beethoven that was intimate and mutually respectful; to lend authenticity to his pronouncements concerning Beethoven's intentions regarding certain compositions and to obtain ammunition for his personal feuds. Despite meeting Beethoven as early as 1814, their association really covers the short period Nov 1822-1824, and the last few months of Beethoven's life (though by 1823 he was already out of favour as Beethoven referred to Schindler in a letter to his brother as 'a miserable scoundrel, a vile contemptible creature' - a description he lived up to perfectly after Beethoven's death!)


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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 06-22-2004).]

[v russo]

There is a great book called "Beethoven, in his own Words", I believe. It has the complete sketchbook conversations plus other writings. Its is a fascinating read.

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v russo

[This message has been edited by v russo (edited 06-22-2004).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
The falsifications (150 of them) have been shown to be largely self-serving; to bolster his claim of having enjoyed a relationship with Beethoven that was intimate and mutually respectful; to lend authenticity to his pronouncements concerning Beethoven's intentions regarding certain compositions and to obtain ammunition for his personal feuds. Despite meeting Beethoven as early as 1814, their association really covers the short period Nov 1822-1824, and the last few months of Beethoven's life (though by 1823 he was already out of favour as Beethoven referred to Schindler in a letter to his brother as 'a miserable scoundrel, a vile contemptible creature' - a description he lived up to perfectly after Beethoven's death!)

Fascinating! I think Beethoven also accused Schindler of skimming off some of the proceeds to the premere of his 9th Symphony. That really severed their relationship. I'm surprised that Schindler returned a few years later and was by Beethoven's side during his illness and then death.



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Geratlas]

Originally posted by Peter:
With regard to sketchbooks, 33 desk books (oblong format for indoors usually in ink) and 37 pocketbooks (usually in pencil) are listed, with around 1000 loose leaves. The first known pocket book dates from 1815.
Prior to 1798 Beethoven did not use bound pocketbooks and there are around 200 leaves from this earlier period surviving. The surviving loose leaves are housed in two collectios named after 2 collectors, the Kafka in London and the Fischhof in Berlin. At the auction in Nov 1827 (after Beethoven's death) 2/3 of the books were bought by the publisher Artaria for a small amount (what wouldn't we give today!!) and though many are in public collections many are in private hands and inaccessible.
The conversation books date from 1818 until the last on 5th march 1827. There are around 137 books however Schindler who owned the books after Beethoven's death may have destroyed many of them (around 400 were said to have existed), and he certainly forged many entries - all the conversations between Beethoven and Schindler 1819/1820 are fake. There are gaps - nothing from March 1818 - 1819, and nothing between sep 1820 and june 1822.

Good heavens, Peter. You really have this well in your hand; detailed as always - Thanx. Here I tried to supplement and counter yours somewhat.
As I understand it the sketchbook, called Grasnick1, dates from mid-1798 until early 1799 and is the first "known". (I take it there could have been some prior even to this one.) I don't know what works it contains, but I would guess among others the early quartets (op.18).
The first known pocket-book, includes work on The Ruins of Athens, and dates from 1811. The next from 1815 onwards. - I know he usally took the pocket books out-door so as in relaxed spirit be able to note down such enough inspired ideas to work with more notorious whence back home, but did he in late life cease to use large desk-books, or atleast by and by substitute them for loose leaves? - The latest sketchbook I know of is that called the Boldrini (vanished without trace, alas). And is this, by the way, included in the count above, "33 desk books"? Many questions? Well, :? hope you cope... / F.G.

[Geratlas]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
A good starting point might be the book, "Two Beethoven Sketchbooks" by Gustav Nottebohm.
There is a great book called "Beethoven, in his own Words", I believe. It has the complete sketchbook conversations plus other writings. Its is a fascinating read.

I better look them up! :] Thanx a lot! I would love it if someone already read some interesting, illuminting or even perplexing words of his and present them here.

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Geratlas:
As I understand it the sketchbook, called Grasnick1, dates from mid-1798 until early 1799 and is the first "known". (I take it there could have been some prior even to this one.) I don't know what works it contains, but I would guess among others the early quartets (op.18).


Grasnick 1 is the first desk sketchbook as prior to 1798 Beethoven used loose leaves. It contains sketches for op.18 nos 1,3, Op.19 and WoO73.

The first known pocket-book, includes work on The Ruins of Athens, and dates from 1811. The next from 1815 onwards. - I know he usally took the pocket books out-door so as in relaxed spirit be able to note down such enough inspired ideas to work with more notorious whence back home, but did he in late life cease to use large desk-books, or atleast by and by substitute them for loose leaves? - The latest sketchbook I know of is that called the Boldrini (vanished without trace, alas). And is this, by the way, included in the count above, "33 desk books"? Many questions? Well, :? hope you cope... / F.G.

The Boldrini is a pocket book (lost as you say) dates from 1817-1818 and contains sketches for Op.106 1st and 2nd movs. The last pocket books are Ms 62/66 autumn 1826, Op.135 2nd-4th movs, Op.130 6th mov and Autograph 10/2 Nov 1826 -1827, string quintet in C.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Geratlas:

Originally posted by Sorrano:
A good starting point might be the book, "Two Beethoven Sketchbooks" by Gustav Nottebohm.
There is a great book called "Beethoven, in his own Words", I believe. It has the complete sketchbook conversations plus other writings. Its is a fascinating read.

I better look them up! :] Thanx a lot! I would love it if someone already read some interesting, illuminting or even perplexing words of his and present them here.

Many of these have been posted here under Beethoven quotes if you try search.

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Geratlas, try to get a hold of this book, "Beethoven, the man and the artist, as revealed in his own words". Compiled and annotated by Friedrich Kerst. Translated into English, and edited, with additional notes, by Henry Edward Krehbiel.
Publisher: New York, Dover Publications [1964]
Notes: "An unabridged and unaltered republication of the work first published by B. W. Huebsch in 1905."
A very interesting read. I read it sometime ago and shall have to read it again. As I remember very interesting and lots of information about his thoughts and quotes "in his own words".


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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Roehre]

The conversation books date from 1818 until the last on 5th march 1827. There are around 137 books however Schindler who owned the books after Beethoven's death may have destroyed many of them (around 400 were said to have existed), and he certainly forged many entries - all the conversations between Beethoven and Schindler 1819/1820 are fake. There are gaps - nothing from March 1818 - 1819, and nothing between sep 1820 and june 1822.

With the publication of all 11 volumes of the Konversationshefte completed, I am very doubtful regarding the original assumed amount of around 400.

I now tend to think that Schindler might have NOT destroyed many -if at all- booklets in his possession.

He corrupted them, and thankfully in a way which makes it possible to trace his falsifications.

But if we've got 138 (at least one booklet was NOT in his possession, the only booklet now in the Beethovenhaus, and the only one which has been recently published in a full colour facsimile, with German and English introduction and texts) out of say 400, then the year between March 1818 and March 1819 (a time in which Beethoven was not yet THAT deaf) and the 21 months between September 1820 and June 1822 should have been covered by the missing say 260 booklets or at least by far the best part of it.

One doesn't need to be an mathematician to see that that is very unlikely, to say the least, even taking in account that the size of the booklets varies between a couple and 94 pages, and the period covered (with exception of the earlier mentioned Bonn booklet, which was entirely used at one night, the night of the premiere of opus 132) varying between one week and some six/seven weeks.

[Peter]

With the publication of all 11 volumes of the Konversationshefte completed, I am very doubtful regarding the original assumed amount of around 400.

I now tend to think that Schindler might have NOT destroyed many -if at all- booklets in his possession.

He corrupted them, and thankfully in a way which makes it possible to trace his falsifications.

But if we've got 138 (at least one booklet was NOT in his possession, the only booklet now in the Beethovenhaus, and the only one which has been recently published in a full colour facsimile, with German and English introduction and texts) out of say 400, then the year between March 1818 and March 1819 (a time in which Beethoven was not yet THAT deaf) and the 21 months between September 1820 and June 1822 should have been covered by the missing say 260 booklets or at least by far the best part of it.

One doesn't need to be an mathematician to see that that is very unlikely, to say the least, even taking in account that the size of the booklets varies between a couple and 94 pages, and the period covered (with exception of the earlier mentioned Bonn booklet, which was entirely used at one night, the night of the premiere of opus 132) varying between one week and some six/seven weeks.

Well we know the gaps amount to around 3 years out of the 9 he used the conversation books. That should mean we have 6 years of books - as we have 138 books it equates to an average of between 2-3 weeks a book and would mean about 78 are missing. So assuming we have the complete books for the period of 6 years it does indeed look like an over-estimate. Schindler can of course be shown to have falsified much but I think you are right that he may not be solely responsible (if at all) for the loss of some books - Beethoven himself could have thrown them away or lost them during the many moves!