Beethoven to Brahms

[King Stephen]

It has been said that the last movement of the Brahms 1st symphony has a passing likeness to the Beethoven "Ode to Joy' theme.
Here is another where Brahms I think bears a closer resemblance to Beethoven. The opening theme,with the french horns, of Brahms 2nd symphony has a eerie relationship to the opening motive of the Eroica. It may not be note for note, but it dose have passing likeness. Just listen to it and see if you agree with me. The influence of Beethoven on Brahms must have been tremendous

[Peter]

Yes, but what to me is more striking is the completely different effect Brahms creates with similar material - but as I've pointed out before, composers from Bach to Mahler were working with the major/minor tonal system and themes are built on scales and arpeggio figures. Take for example Beethoven's Op.2 sonata no.1, first mov amd compare to the opening of Mozart's symphony 40 finale, 5th mov of Haydn's quartet op.1/6, or even the opening of Bruckner's 7th! Compare the finale of Haydn's symphony 13 to the finale of Mozart's Jupiter or even the example of the Eroica you cite and compare to Mozart's Bastienne. So these thematic similarities in a shared musical language are to some extent inevitable and may or may not be conscious references, but the important point is that a great composer manages to say something completely different with similar notes or rhythmic patterns.

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'Man know thyself'

[Gurn Blanston]

It seems to me that you are both correct, it was unavoidable that themes would be repeated, given their Lego-like character. OTOH, Beethoven had a HUGE influence on Brahms, spiritually and inspirationally, so perhaps it is a touch more than chance in his case.


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[urtextmeister]

I have just put a recording on of Brahms 2. I see your point, King, but the resemblance doesn't hit me over the head.

Peter,
You make a very good point. There are only so many possibilities within a tonal system (which may explain why we have explored atonal systems). Similarities are inevitable. To add fuel to your argument, we are talking about a horn lick at the start of the symphony. Horn have always been associated with spelling out your basic triad. This narrows the number of possibilities even further. If you are going to start your symphony with a tune in the horn section (unless you do something very un-hornlike) it will probably sound like the Eroica.

However, I think we should keep in mind that composers probably had a great awareness of music by their near contemporaries. Unlike us, they didn't have a vast recorded history of music to listen to. I think Brahms was probably aware of even slight references to Beethoven in his music.

In the end, of course, music is very subjective. It doesn't matter so much what a composer was thinking when he or she wrote the piece. What really matters is what we experience when we listen to it.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
It seems to me that you are both correct, it was unavoidable that themes would be repeated, given their Lego-like character. OTOH, Beethoven had a HUGE influence on Brahms, spiritually and inspirationally, so perhaps it is a touch more than chance in his case.

Indeed Brahms was conscioucly influenced by Beethoven and this is apparent from his Op.1 which does actually use the Hammerklavier and the Waldstein as its model, but there again Brahms creates a completely different effect to either of these works.


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'Man know thyself'

[Michael]

The first eight notes of the third movement of Beethoven's Fifth are identical in intervals to those of the finale of Mozart's 40th. The two pieces sound so different, however, that the resemblance can be spotted only in notation.
The whole thing could be dismissed as a coincidence except for the fact that the opening 29 bars of Mozart's finale are copied into Beethoven's sketch-book for the C minor work.
There is also a theme in Beethoven's finale (the second main tune - about 25 bars in) which is straight out of the slow movement of the Jupiter symphony.

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 06-07-2004).]

[Joy]

Speaking of similarities, there's that Mahler's First Symphony written in 1888 where he might have had Beethoven's 4th Symphony right in front of him while composing it. After that, however, he took the introduction into a completely different direction. Musical 'borrowing' happened all the time back then now it would be a nightmare with all the copyright laws out there! Where you take the material in the right direction and how you develope it shows you as a composer. It's really what you do with the material not so much the material itself.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
Speaking of similarities, there's that Mahler's First Symphony written in 1888 where he might have had Beethoven's 4th Symphony right in front of him while composing it. After that, however, he took the introduction into a completely different direction. Musical 'borrowing' happened all the time back then now it would be a nightmare with all the copyright laws out there! Where you take the material in the right direction and how you develope it shows you as a composer. It's really what you do with the material not so much the material itself.

I think we have to distinguish deliberate borrowings or quotations from pure chance. Mahler may well have had in mind the opening of Beethoven's 4th but he uses different interval - 4ths instead of Beethoven's minor 3rds , a similar passage occurs before the recap in finale of Brahms's 2nd symphony. We also have to consider folk music - there are certain national characteristics in the melody and rhythm of Spanish, Russian, German and French themes and other countries. Identical motives are used again and again by composers consciously and unconsciously. We have already mentioned Beethoven's 1st sonata and Mozart's 40th symphony - this motive is known as the Mannheim as it occurs so frequently in that school of composers.
Then we have the deliberate parody quotations such as Shostakovich 15th symphony/Rossini's William tell, Debussy's Golliwogg's cake walk/Wagner's Tristan prelude, the lullaby from Strauss's Domestic symphony/venetian boat song by Mendelssohn. The theme of Mozart's Magic flute is taken from Clementi's sonata Op.47/2 in Bb and the fugue subject from the requiem had been used by many composers.

Then there is the final category when whole sections of another composers work were used, particularly in the baroque.

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'Man know thyself'

[King Stephen]

In the end, of course, music is very subjective. It doesn't matter so much what a composer was thinking when he or she wrote the piece. What really matters is what we experience when we listen to it.


[/B][/QUOTE]

I believe that could be considered the finale words on the subject.
Steve

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think we have to distinguish deliberate borrowings or quotations from pure chance. Mahler may well have had in mind the opening of Beethoven's 4th but he uses different interval - 4ths instead of Beethoven's minor 3rds , a similar passage occurs before the recap in finale of Brahms's 2nd symphony. We also have to consider folk music - there are certain national characteristics in the melody and rhythm of Spanish, Russian, German and French themes and other countries. Identical motives are used again and again by composers consciously and unconsciously. We have already mentioned Beethoven's 1st sonata and Mozart's 40th symphony - this motive is known as the Mannheim as it occurs so frequently in that school of composers.
Then we have the deliberate parody quotations such as Shostakovich 15th symphony/Rossini's William tell, Debussy's Golliwogg's cake walk/Wagner's Tristan prelude, the lullaby from Strauss's Domestic symphony/venetian boat song by Mendelssohn. The theme of Mozart's Magic flute is taken from Clementi's sonata Op.47/2 in Bb and the fugue subject from the requiem had been used by many composers.

Then there is the final category when whole sections of another composers work were used, particularly in the baroque.

Understood. Point taken, Peter!



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
Understood. Point taken, Peter!

It is an interesting subject and for you thematic detectives I have another find, the 2nd (chorale)theme of Bach's Jesu joy of man's desiring opens with exactly the same 7 notes (in different key and rhythm) as Beethoven's ode to joy! It also occurs in Beethoven's one movement Bb trio.

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'Man know thyself'

[Tony John Hearne]

I have just read these postings with (honestly) wonder and awe. I am not a professonal or even amateur musician nor can even read music but my two only loves in life are my children and Classical Music. I am so pleased to be a part of this wonderful web site and to be party, even as just an observer, to these discussions.

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Love from London

[King Stephen]

Originally posted by Tony John Hearne:
I have just read these postings with (honestly) wonder and awe. I am not a professonal or even amateur musician nor can even read music but my two only loves in life are my children and Classical Music. I am so pleased to be a part of this wonderful web site and to be party, even as just an observer, to these discussions.

If my memory serves me wrong I am sure there is someone who will correct me. I quote Beethoven, who said " Music from the heart to the heart".
And that my friend Tony is what this site is all about. None of what you mention is of consequence, except that you love your children and music. Young, old, musician, composer, it does not matter. Music will transgress all when it comes to our hearts and minds.
Steve

[This message has been edited by King Stephen (edited 06-12-2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by King Stephen:
If my memory serves me wrong I am sure there is someone who will correct me. I quote Beethoven, who said " Music from the heart to the heart".

Yes this quote heads the score of the Missa solemnis.

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

And one of my favourite quotes from Beethoven. What a beautiful thought.

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'Truth and beauty joined'