Authentic page mp3s - Creatures of Prometheus

[Peter]

Now available to members at www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/authentic.html

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'Man know thyself'

[Amalie]

A great rousing performance from the young Maestro! A new star in the firmament announcing his presence.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Amalie:


A great rousing performance from the young Maestro! A new star in the firmament announcing his presence.

Th accoustic is a little on the dry side, but otherwise a first rate recording. The best of this this piece from my experience.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-20-2004).]

[Andrea]

I quite enjoyed these pieces. All I have heard before from "The Creatures of Prometheus" Op. 43 was the overture.

Here's a bit on this ballet from Matthews' "Beethoven":

An anecdote concerning Haydn and Beethoven was to play on the word-link between the former's "Creation" and the creations of Prometheus. After Haydn had complimented him on the ballet Beethoven, who could seldom resit a play on words, is said to have replied "...but it is far from being a Creation!" "That is true" said Haydn, taking his former pupil's witticism at face value: "It is not yet a Creation and I can scarcelybelieve it will ever become one." The story, authentic or not, seems to sum up the touchiness of their relationship.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Andrea:
I quite enjoyed these pieces...

Only 'quite'?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Andrea:
I quite enjoyed these pieces. All I have heard before from "The Creatures of Prometheus" Op. 43 was the overture.

Here's a bit on this ballet from Matthews' "Beethoven":

An anecdote concerning Haydn and Beethoven was to play on the word-link between the former's "Creation" and the creations of Prometheus. After Haydn had complimented him on the ballet Beethoven, who could seldom resit a play on words, is said to have replied "...but it is far from being a Creation!" "That is true" said Haydn, taking his former pupil's witticism at face value: "It is not yet a Creation and I can scarcelybelieve it will ever become one." The story, authentic or not, seems to sum up the touchiness of their relationship.

Possibly Haydn was contnuing the spirit of the little exchange, and was also joking?

[ruudp]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Possibly Haydn was contnuing the spirit of the little exchange, and was also joking?

I very much doubt that chaszz..
Haydn's attitude towards ludwig has always been cool.avasive and to some point irritating.
He found beethoven far to "aggresive" revolutionary and renewing, Haydn himself had been a renewer once but clinged on to his ideals and form in later age. he was after all 60 years old when he started to teach young ludwig.
I also read a story awhile ago concerning beethovens piano trio's opus 1.
Haydn recommended his pupil to add to the publishers the little note saying Pupil form Haydn and furthermore he dissaproved of the 3rd trio in c minor which he found too difficult.Beethoven was furious and decided to publish ALL the works WITHOUT the little note.At the end the 3rd trio even became the most populair ..
Regards,
Ruud

[Peter]

Originally posted by ruudp:
I very much doubt that chaszz..
Haydn's attitude towards ludwig has always been cool.avasive and to some point irritating.
He found beethoven far to "aggresive" revolutionary and renewing, Haydn himself had been a renewer once but clinged on to his ideals and form in later age. he was after all 60 years old when he started to teach young ludwig.
I also read a story awhile ago concerning beethovens piano trio's opus 1.
Haydn recommended his pupil to add to the publishers the little note saying Pupil form Haydn and furthermore he dissaproved of the 3rd trio in c minor which he found too difficult.Beethoven was furious and decided to publish ALL the works WITHOUT the little note.At the end the 3rd trio even became the most populair ..
Regards,
Ruud

I suggest that Beethoven was more at fault in this relationship - for one thing he had a quarrelsome nature, history of broken friendships, a fierce temper and a suspicious mind. Haydn on the other hand was renowned for his good humour, polite manners and kind nature.

In suggesting Beethoven hold back the c minor in Op.1, Haydn was offering sound advice as he feared it was too demanding and may harm Beethoven's reputation. His motives were certainly not jealousy as Beethoven misinterpreted them.

As for Beethoven refusing to put 'pupil of Haydn', well he felt he hadn't learnt anything from him (he actually learnt a lot from Haydn's music itself). Haydn was no great shakes as a teacher, probably too polite and not strict enough. Beethoven did of course dedicate his Op.2 sonatas to Haydn.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-22-2004).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Thank you, Peter, for saving me from saying that. Let me just add that Haydn was one of the most innovative composers who ever put pen to paper, and this continued until he stopped writing, just a few years before his death. Nothing he ever wrote can be traced down and shown as being derivative from someone else's style. Of course, neither was Beethoven derivative, although he certainly took earlier ideas and made new edifaces from them, he did it with his own unique style.


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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PS - Rod, sorry, I forgot what thread we were in. Splendid performances, interesting comparison to the OCO that I got the same day you posted these. Thanks,
Gurn

[This message has been edited by Gurn Blanston (edited 05-22-2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
PS - Rod, sorry, I forgot what thread we were in. Splendid performances, interesting comparison to the OCO that I got the same day you posted these. Thanks,
Gurn

Actually that Orpheus Chamber Orchestra recording (on DG) was one my very early Beethoven purchases, I bought it on tape. I must say I was disappointed with the performance, even though I had never heard a note of the music beforehand, and gave it away some time later. If I'd known you then I would have sent it to you, gratis! In my opinion if ever there was a Beethoven piece that needs the 'authentic' treatment it is this ballet, and Bruggen and the Orch of the 18th Century prove it (I forgot to put this info in the credits!.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-22-2004).]

[Joy]

And wasn't there a story about the young Beethoven letting Haydn think he was practising his lessons when he was really paying someone else to do so? Haydn even wrote a letter to the prince telling him about how well Beethoven was doing which must have been embarrassing for him after he found out the truth. I seem to remember vaguely a story something along those lines? Haydn, after a while, even forgave Beethoven for that even though it was humilating. Haydn really must have had a forgiving nature.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited 05-22-2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I suggest that Beethoven was more at fault in this relationship - for one thing he had a quarrelsome nature, history of broken friendships, a fierce temper and a suspicious mind. Haydn on the other hand was renowned for his good humour, polite manners and kind nature.

Maybe so, yet we apparently have Haydn saying "It is not yet a Creation and I can scarcely believe it will ever become one." If true it seems the good mannered Haydn could give as good as he took!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

I'd still suggest that Haydn in this exchange might merely have been continuing the light humor of Beethoven's remark. This does not suggest that their relationship was not prickly. But even prickly relationships among those who know each other fairly well, and see each other from time to time, may not preclude some occasional humorous repartee. Perhaps even the reverse, as it may tend to keep the wonted tension in a more civilized framework. Since Beethoven offered here a couteous and deferential bit of homor, why could Haydn have not responded, a bit sarcastically, in humorous kind, rather than changing tone and actually trying to wound? Especially after having just paid a compliment. These were real people with shifting moods and complexities, not figures acting out a preconceived script in which each had to play out his habitual role toward the other. Only a supposition.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I'd still suggest that Haydn in this exchange might merely have been continuing the light humor of Beethoven's remark. This does not suggest that their relationship was not prickly. But even prickly relationships among those who know each other fairly well, and see each other from time to time, may not preclude some occasional humorous repartee. Perhaps even the reverse, as it may tend to keep the wonted tension in a more civilized framework. Since Beethoven offered here a couteous and deferential bit of homor, why could Haydn have not responded, a bit sarcastically, in humorous kind, rather than changing tone and actually trying to wound? Especially after having just paid a compliment. These were real people with shifting moods and complexities, not figures acting out a preconceived script in which each had to play out his habitual role toward the other. Only a supposition.

Absolutely! Those who accuse Haydn of jealousy really know nothing of the man's character or of his historical position. When Beethoven arrived on the scene, Haydn was nearing the end of his composing career, world famous, feted wherever he went, his reputation and achievement secure. Aside from this the man was incredibly modest and honest enough to acknowledge Mozart as his superior especially in opera.

It is simply that they were a clash between the old world and the new, Beethoven's gruff manners and plain speaking did not mix with Haydn's genteel world of politeness and elegance. Beethoven had also misled Haydn and put him in an embarrassing situation with the Elector at Bonn, by claiming certain compositions (written earlier in Bonn) were evidence of his progress since studying with Haydn. I suggest this incident, together with Haydn's lack of enthusiasm (and perhaps ability) to teach, was at the root of their strained relationship.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

This is all well and good, but I didn't go to the effort of providing this music so that we could discuss Haydn!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin