Beethoven the Conductor

[~Leslie]

More grist for the mill:


As with the Eroica, he pushed the limits of the period's chamber orchestra, which nearly burst the four walls of Lichnowsky's salon.

Now the new sonatas were already beyond the mechanical capacity of the piano and virtuosity of the performers of his day. if played according to Beethoven's implications, it would have done damage to the close descendants of the harpisichord.

B appealed to Striecher the piano maker to give his instruments greater resonance and elasticity that the virtuoso who plays with strength and significance may have the instrument in better command for sustained and expressive tones.

As it was, the Appassionata had not been publicly performed until B had been in his grave for 12 years, so far as the records show.

This is my case thus far, for modern instruments. The man was far ahead of his time~

[Peter]

Originally posted by ~Leslie:


As it was, the Appassionata had not been publicly performed until B had been in his grave for 12 years, so far as the records show.

As far as I am aware only one of the Sonatas received what we would regard as a public performance in Beethoven's lifetime (I forget which one !)- but that has to do with the fashion of the time - the solo recital (a term supposedly coined by Liszt) simply did not exist.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by chrisg:
[b]

Hello Rod, glad to see you're back. Taking rubato off the table, all of the accounts still point to this:

It's all about energy, strength, bravura, feeling, expressiveness, a "gigantic style of
performance," at once noble, profound, charming and romantic. And from the quote that started this thread, characterized by delicate nuances, light and shade, and ardor.

Had to return to put matters straight on this topic. Notice that Beethoven managed to play with all the above characteristics on a Viennese fortepiano! Nuances, light and shade are possible and necessary - but they are a reflection of correct phrasing and volume rather than continuous pushing and pulling of tempo, which B could have not effectively achieved. Profundity and romantisim as we commonly know it today are in my opinion mutually exclusive - listen to Webers chamber music circa 1815 - THEN you hear something really romantic and something altogether different from Beethoven.

Originally posted by chrisg:
[b]
You also wrote:

The underplayed dynamics is merely a problem caused by an instrument that is too loud and too thickly toned and incapable of sharp attack. The player tends to restrict him/herself lest the sound become grotesque.

My comment on underplayed dynamics was directed at Roberts, and most others I've heard. Pianists like Richter and Gilels have no such problem, and produce nothing grotesque to my ears. Again, based only on what I've read, the instruments of Beethoven's time couldn't handle the dynamics he wanted. He was continually breaking his pianos in the attempt, though I can't say whether or not this was true while his hearing was still intact. Another variable is that the instrument was changing and improving over his lifetime.

Gilels recording of the Hammerklavier is one of the most dissappointing purchases I ever made, I regard it as totally undynamic compared to recording I have by Badura-Skoda using an original 1820's instrument. I have also critisised Richter here in the past as one dimentional. The grotesqueness comes when pianists really try to go for dynamism on the modern piano - the tone is far to thick and noisy for the music's context. I have some such performances where B's noisier passages are simply earsplittingly awful played at 'full blast', a typical case being op2 no3. The modern piano is simply too much for this type of bravaura, yet on a 5 octave Walter or Schantz B would have used, it sounds totally plausible. Performers are always fussy about their instruments - the big stars today are not satisfied unless they have the best of the best, does it mean that the others have no worth?

Regarding the tendancy for the piano strings to break, this is a secondary issue not connected to the musicallity - I would accept the use of stronger modern strings if they had the same sound characteristics as the old ones. My point is with the modern instrument things have been taken too far, so that the sound is too heavy, noisy and lacking attack for music of B's time. It is unrealistic to suggest that the modern piano is equally suited for all piano music written since the instruments invention.

Regarding Roberts I did not give his an unqualified recommendation, I praised his recording of the Diabelli and op126 which I have heard nothing better. Some of the sonatas are rather lax regarding tempi and dynamics but I praised him for being free of any distracting personal performance ideosyncracies that one often hears elsewhere, even by fp players.

Originally posted by chrisg:
[b]
Rod, I'd love to hear Beethoven played on a period piano in a way consistent with the accounts of Czerny and Ries. On the front page, recordings by Paul Komen are recommended. Is he your pick? If you don't mind listing some specific favorite recordings of yours, I'll give them a try.

It is ultimately only through hearing that I make my case - reading books does not suffice. Until you hear both sides of the situation, you cannot really pass judgement either way. Paul Badura-Skoda's complete sonatas is my recommendation, but this is no longer in the catalogue, with only a couple of lame renditions out of the 32. But there is still available (in UK) an excellent recording by him of B's 4th concerto (with the tripple also) on DHM using a Graf. Komen is recommended also for certain sonatas at least - the more unusual ones especially like op78 or op31 no3, where he is the best I have heard. But I have not heard all his recordings. Melvyn Tan has a very good recording of op81a, op53 and op57 - Tan plays things very straight here, a good example of what I'm talking about (but Tan's other recordings are lame for some reason).

[Rod]

Originally posted by ~Leslie:

More grist for the mill:


As with the Eroica, he pushed the limits of the period's chamber orchestra, which nearly burst the four walls of Lichnowsky's salon.

I suggest to the contrary that B was rather a conservative orchestrator, he rarely went beyond the norm at that time, definitely conservative by Romantic standards!

Originally posted by ~Leslie:

Now the new sonatas were already beyond the mechanical capacity of the piano and virtuosity of the performers of his day. if played according to Beethoven's implications, it would have done damage to the close descendants of the harpisichord.

This is a myth that has been peddled by so-called academics for years, the best pianos were more than capable of dealing with B's material, of this there is absolutely no doubt. B even had his own recommended brand, namely Streicher...

Originally posted by ~Leslie:

B appealed to Striecher the piano maker to give his instruments greater resonance and elasticity that the virtuoso who plays with strength and significance may have the instrument in better command for sustained and expressive tones.

...and such instruments were thus provided, hence the instrument grew significantly in size and strength from about 1810 onwards. The pianos of the 1820's were (and still are) more than capable of playing the late sonatas. The above request does not by default mean he wanted a Steinway circa 1990. In fact B showed disatisfaction with the 'more modern' English-actioned Erard and Broadood pianos he posessed (despite their more powerful tone) and reverted to the Viennese norm.

Originally posted by ~Leslie:

As it was, the Appassionata had not been publicly performed until B had been in his grave for 12 years, so far as the records show.

This is my case thus far, for modern instruments. The man was far ahead of his time~

As has been said already, such works were not written for concert performance at that time, whereas the full size modern grand is specifically desgned for large venues and cannot be played effectively in a 'salon'. I heard B's op10 played on just a half size Steinway grand in such a salon - the instrument was 100 times too loud for this relatively intimate accoustic. Call me Mr Fussy but I don't want to appreciate the Appassionata from 150 feet away in the 75th row!

Rod

[chrisg]

Gilels recording of the Hammerklavier is one of the most dissappointing purchases I ever made, I regard it as totally undynamic compared to recording I have by Badura-Skoda
using an original 1820's instrument.

I have most of Gilel's Beethoven, but not this one. In every one I do have, it's the magnificently dynamic playing that jumps out at me. His "Appassionata" has huge dynamic contrasts, as well as the most sublime slow movement I've heard. Going back to Roberts (only because he's common ground for comparison), there is no comparison. Try the finale of the "Moonlight", absolutely speaker busting violent in Gilels hands. If Badura-Skoda makes Gilels sound "undynamic" compared to these, I must find his recordings.


I have also critisised Richter here in the past as one dimentional. The grotesqueness comes when pianists really try to go for dynamism on the modern piano - the
tone is far to thick and noisy for the music's context. I have some such performances where B's noisier passages are simply earsplittingly awful played at 'full blast', a typical case being op2 no3. The modern piano is simply too much for this type of bravaura,

Well, then again, maybe I wouldn't think much of Badura-Skoda after all. Our tastes are on different planets. I can't stand Beethoven, even "early" Beethoven, played like nice Mozart (keeping in mind I haven't heard B-S), which is exactly how it's normally done. To my ears, Richter's Op. 2 No.3 (Prague '65) is without any qualification, the greatest performance going, a masterpiece revealed, instead of nice "early" B. Superb everywhere, tear producing beautiful in the Adagio, and the most fun, wittiest, perfectly phrased finale. Every dimension this music has to offer comes out in this performance, and for what it's worth, the audience agrees with me. His "Appassionata" on the other hand, is pretty one dimensional, but flat out thrilling is a hell of an effective dimension for this work.

For me, Richter is the greatest pianist to ever touch a keyboard, equally superlative in Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Liszt, Ravel, Debussy, Scriabin, Rachmaninov, etc... Lots of dimensions there. Ok, I don't care for his Chopin, but nobody's perfect.

Well, if we all liked it the same way, music would be a lot less interesting.

cg




[This message has been edited by chrisg (edited 02-12-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by chrisg:


I have most of Gilel's Beethoven, but not this one. In every one I do have, it's the magnificently dynamic playing that jumps out at me. His "Appassionata" has huge dynamic contrasts, as well as the most sublime slow movement I've heard. Going back to Roberts (only because he's common ground for comparison), there is no comparison. Try the finale of the "Moonlight", absolutely speaker busting violent in Gilels hands. If Badura-Skoda makes Gilels sound "undynamic" compared to these, I must find his recordings.

Gilels Hammerklavier is his most famous recording. I've read long articles devoted to it! I have had in my possession all of B's 'named' sonatas by Gilels. They are ok but not dynamic enough for me compared to the best efforts I've heard using the fp, which have an abundance of colour, clarity and incisive attack, whereas the modern instruments qualities lie in volume and sustain. I suggest that dynamism essential in Beethoven is better served by the fp's qualities. I have a recording of the finale of the moonlight by Jos van Immerseel using a Graf that would blow your head off. You would put away your Gilels recording for ever. A CD-RW will be comming my way soon, I may compile a demo for interested parties.

Originally posted by chrisg:

Well, then again, maybe I wouldn't think much of Badura-Skoda after all. Our tastes are on different planets. I can't stand Beethoven, even "early" Beethoven, played like nice Mozart (keeping in mind I haven't heard B-S), which is exactly how it's normally done. To my ears, Richter's Op. 2 No.3 (Prague '65) is without any qualification, the greatest performance going, a masterpiece revealed, instead of nice "early" B. Superb everywhere, tear producing beautiful in the Adagio, and the most fun, wittiest, perfectly phrased finale. Every dimension this music has to offer comes out in this performance, and for what it's worth, the audience agrees with me. His "Appassionata" on the other hand, is pretty one dimensional, but flat out thrilling is a hell of an effective dimension for this work.

Who said Beethoven should sound like Mozart? In fact Mozart only sounds so lame because of its inaproprate performance using modern pianos and playing techniques!!! On the contrary I suggest you can more effectively play with fire and passion using the fp because clarity it still preserved and volume never becomes excessive. With the Steinway I agree the solution is not to revert to some 'choppy' manner of playing, in fact there is no solution I can see for this problem, when you start with the wrong tools your never going to make a perfect job of it. I don't think we need Richter to reveal a Beethoven masterpiece! but I am glad you noticed his 'unique' (infact for me the very worst) interpretation of the Appassionata. I suggest it is the late romantic influence that has resulted in so much 'nice' Beethoven, as most of it is not effective played in this manner - hence I suggest there are more duff Beethoven recordings than that of any other composer - only with Beethoven is there such a diverse confusion and uncertainty of interpretation.

Originally posted by chrisg:

For me, Richter is the greatest pianist to ever touch a keyboard, equally superlative in Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Liszt, Ravel, Debussy, Scriabin, Rachmaninov, etc... Lots of dimensions there. Ok, I don't care for his Chopin, but nobody's perfect.

The fact that you include Beethoven with these other composers is significant - do you regard the others as particularly dynamic composers? If you do then it is here above all we are absolutely poles apart. I don't think you can realistically just switch from the likes of Rachmanillow to Beethoven and expect to observe the nuances of the latter - this is why most pianists are so lame when it comes to Beethoven. In fact why play the others at all if you can play Beethoven!!

Originally posted by chrisg:

Well, if we all liked it the same way, music would be a lot less interesting.

Peaceable get-outs not allowed!

[chrisg]

Peaceable get-outs not allowed!

Quite right, I plead temporary niceness. I listened to Richter's Op.2/3 today, and about that, you are completely wrong. I did post one mistake though, it's not from Prague '65, it's acutally Prague '75. I must have been thinking of Richter's equally great No. 18, which is of course, Prague '65.

I posted to the classical recordings newsgroup asking for period instrument piano recommendations. The first response was "Why?", but I did get a real one from Mr. Simon Roberts, whose knowledge of classical recordings in general, and Beethoven recordings in particular, is so incredibly vast he's been accused of being a committee.
"If you want a complete HIP set, there's one on Claves featuring a variety of pianists (Bilson plus Bilson students from Cornell) and pianos, all very well recorded. The performance styles are all over the map, ranging from the fairly fast and dramatic (Bilson, van Oort) to the more restrained (technically they're all fine). I wish they had all been done in the former manner, but, well, I guess that's just tough luck. Note
that Bilson also adds a few ornaments, most controversially (presumably, though as far as I can see it hasn't generated much) in op. 109/iii.

There are other individual discs worth pursuing, including a CD on Pro Arte by Peter Serkin containing the last three (his op. 111/i is hair-raising) that's out of print but which occasionally shows up in used
CD stores. His wonderful Hammerklavier was (unlike his Steinway recording) unfortunately never released on CD (if you ever find the LP or cassette, also Pro Arte, grab it). Another superb LP only performance is Demus's op. 110 (he plays Beethoven's own Graf piano with rather more flair than his other recordings might lead one to expect; this is one of
my favorite performances, not least for the extraordinary array of tonal shading the instrument is capable of). Anthony Newman's disc of popular sonatas on Newport Classics is also worth finding, as I suppose are the
rather more conservative single discs by Lubin and Lubimov (I don't know how many of these are still in print). There's also a series on Globe by Paul Komen that's gradually trickling out (there's a handful of discs available so far); these are good, solid performances that lack the last
degree of flair and drama, and a disc by Kipnis that's pretty good. Khouri's disc on M&A is wretched and should be avoided (unlike his Chopin disc); the same goes for Melvyn Tan's depressingly boring discs."

Rod, are you familiar with Anthony Newman's recordings? His disc of 8, 14, 21, and 23 is available cheap online at Berkshire Record Outlet, along with the Concertos and some Mozart Sonatas - all on fortepiano. I'll give these a try, but will look around for the Badura-Skoda set. Things turn up in used shops. What's the label?

And yes, I did notice the line about the Graf piano.

Thanks,

Chris

[Rod]

Originally posted by chrisg:

Peaceable get-outs not allowed!

Quite right, I plead temporary niceness. I listened to Richter's Op.2/3 today, and about that, you are completely wrong. I did post one mistake though, it's not from Prague '65, it's acutally Prague '75. I must have been thinking of Richter's equally great No. 18, which is of course, Prague '65.

Fair enough, but based on the 'modern' recordings of this piece (Op2/3) I have heard, If this is what B was actually thinking of, he was a second rate composer! Of course this does not happen to be the case so I point the finger of accusation elsewhere!

Originally posted by chrisg:

...Rod, are you familiar with Anthony Newman's recordings? His disc of 8, 14, 21, and 23 is available cheap online at Berkshire Record Outlet, along with the Concertos and some Mozart Sonatas - all on fortepiano. I'll give these a try, but will look around for the Badura-Skoda set. Things turn up in used shops. What's the label?

And yes, I did notice the line about the Graf piano.

Thanks,

Chris

Very interesting stuff, notice the comment about 'tonal shading'! This probably equates to what I call 'colour effects' that these instruments are especially good at, but there are other things, you can't do a proper Beethoven sforzando on the Steinway as far as I am concerned.

I have the Claves set myself, and indeed there is a whole range of playing styles used between these performers - some spot on, others pretty awfull. I would not say the sound is all good with this set, half of them were done at in US university (a sponsor of the recording) hall and the accoustic is awful (obviously a situation where 'if you don't use our hall, you don't get our cash'). Not just Bilson takes liberties with the scores, I think all the others do as well. All of these things, together with a hefty price tag (£100 here in the UK) is why I have not recommended it. However I bought the set in a sale for £30 - at this price a bargain for 10 disks!! It does include the 3 Bonn sonatas as well, which is a bonus.

I know not of Newmans recordings, but I could give you a dozen totally unknown names from my collection in addition! I'm not really looking any more, I think I've got as good as I am likely to find. I will do some compilation CD's when I get the CD-RW that will demonstrate the best of what I'm talking about, this is the only way to convince, and you WILL (if you have an open mind) be convinced! When I've sorted this out I'll let everyone know, and those interested can send me their addresses. Until then, as far as I am aware only Sue here has heard Badura-Skoda using a Graf, ask her if you need a second opinion. The label is Astree Audvis (French), but not sure about the name or spelling. I will check tonight and ammend this post tomorrow if I have got it wrong.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 02-15-2001).]

[Chris]

Rod, if you want people to hear your stuff, why not just rip them from your CD's and post them as mp3's?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
Rod, if you want people to hear your stuff, why not just rip them from your CD's and post them as mp3's?

Good Idea, I might just do that!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin