when people seem completely deaf, in the face of perfection

[Beyond Within]

I was playing Mozarts Jupiter Symphony to some friends, and amongs the beautiful and powerful development which starts at about 3 minutes in the first movement, with all the crazy counterpoint...they just keep talking without even noticing it. I dont understand. How can people just be deaf to such amazing moments in music. Another example is the epic melodic pattern near the end of the first movement of the 5th symphony, that to me is so moving, and when playing it people still dont feel anything.

[This message has been edited by Beyond Within (edited 05-21-2004).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
I was playing Mozarts Jupiter Symphony to some friends, and amongs the beautiful and powerful development which starts at about 3 minutes in the first movement, with all the crazy counterpoint...they just keep talking without even noticing it. I dont understand. How can people just be deaf to such amazing moments in music. Another example is the epic melodic pattern near the end of the first movement of the 5th symphony, that to me is so moving, and when playing it people still dont feel anything.

[This message has been edited by Beyond Within (edited 05-21-2004).]

Yes, it was also amazing to me the shocked and embarassed silence here (except for Amalie, who expressed her shock) when I provided an MP3 link for 'Hotter than That' by Louis Armstrong, that peerless gem of the early 20th Century :-)



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 05-21-2004).]

[Amalie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chaszz:
[B] Yes, it was also amazing to me the shocked and embarassed silence here (except for Amalie, who expressed her shock) when I provided an MP3 link for 'Hotter than That' by Louis Armstrong, that peerless gem of the early 20th Century :-)

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Well perhaphs I was being a bit harsh Chaszz, I guess Louis Armstrong can be a bit hypnotic.
I know what BW means about people talking over music. I have often wondered whether there is a gene for classical music, both for composing it and listening to it.
Put it this way, one can hardly imagine Beethoven wanting a career as a civil engineer and building bridges, etc. in fact anything other than music.
Does it apply, I wonder with regards to listening. That is to say, are there really people in the world who despite all our best efforts would never be able to appreciate classical music because they simply find nothing in it?

I work with a colleague for instance who detests classical music and thinks it all sounds like funeral music. What can really be done with people like this, I just don't know.





[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited 05-21-2004).]

[JA Gardiner]

[quote]Originally posted by Amalie:
[b]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Yes, it was also amazing to me the shocked and embarassed silence here (except for Amalie, who expressed her shock) when I provided an MP3 link for 'Hotter than That' by Louis Armstrong, that peerless gem of the early 20th Century :-)

****

Well perhaphs I was being a bit harsh Chaszz, I guess Louis Armstrong can be a bit hypnotic.
I know what BW means about people talking over music. I have often wondered whether there is a gene for classical music, both for composing it and listening to it.
Put it this way, one can hardly imagine Beethoven wanting a career as a civil engineer and building bridges, etc. in fact anything other than music.
Does it apply, I wonder with regards to listening. That is to say, are there really people in the world who despite all our best efforts would never be able to appreciate classical music because they simply find nothing in it?

I work with a colleague for instance who detests classical music and thinks it all sounds like funeral music. What can really be done with people like this, I just don't know.



[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited 05-21-2004).]

Hey, watch your assumptions about civil engineers - my dearest friend is one, he's also a member of the Highgate Choral Society and loves music of all kinds. There's also supposed to be a special affinity between mathematicians and classical musicians, and I could see how that would work particularly with Bach, Mozart and the Maestro.

I don't think there's a gene as such - although some scholars are identifying musical intelligence as one of 7 different kinds that people have to varying degrees. Mostly its about exposure and access. Had I not had an enlightened Headmaster at primary school who communicated his love of music to us at every opportunity I doubt, given my background, I'd have found it easy to get into classical music - yet I was surrounded by pop and rock and appreciate all genres, except punk and techno. Conversely I heard very little jazz until very recently and am now a member at Ronnie Scott's!

The other factor affecting things is I fear a more generalised inability to concentrate - the famous 3 minute attention span fostered by post-modern media - and the universal practice of using music, of all kinds as mere wallpaper to other activities - watching films, shopping, working out etc. - over which it would therefore be as normal to speak as mere traffic noise!

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Beethoven the Man!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
I was playing Mozarts Jupiter Symphony to some friends, and amongs the beautiful and powerful development which starts at about 3 minutes in the first movement, with all the crazy counterpoint...they just keep talking without even noticing it. I dont understand. How can people just be deaf to such amazing moments in music. Another example is the epic melodic pattern near the end of the first movement of the 5th symphony, that to me is so moving, and when playing it people still dont feel anything.

[This message has been edited by Beyond Within (edited 05-21-2004).]

Well I have listened to live performances of Bach and Mozart with friends and whilst they were in ecstasy I remained quite unmoved.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-21-2004).]

[ruudp]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
I was playing Mozarts Jupiter Symphony to some friends, and amongs the beautiful and powerful development which starts at about 3 minutes in the first movement, with all the crazy counterpoint...they just keep talking without even noticing it. I dont understand. How can people just be deaf to such amazing moments in music. Another example is the epic melodic pattern near the end of the first movement of the 5th symphony, that to me is so moving, and when playing it people still dont feel anything.

[This message has been edited by Beyond Within (edited 05-21-2004).]

Another big problem most of My friends atleast have is the lenght of some works, It asks too much of their concentration from them.
For instance..I'm going to play a work on school at a annual music-evening, pupils play before their parents friends and teachers.99% of the music brought there is "stimmungsmusik" music which is OR modern and IF it should be remotely classical it's the most easy and comprehensible music imagianable,I decided to bring some balance in this programme by playing a own composition which demands attention is gloomy and quite long..It's a nocturne in the ABA from..it starts nice and easy then a stormy míddle section and it ends calmly again.. although my parents approved of this piece others found it *not pleasant* and even claimed the wonderfull prelude op.28 nr 15 of Frederique chopin *otherwise known as the Raindrop* which I played for them as being TOO heavy and serious...
What's this world going to....

[urtextmeister]

Music in our society has become sort of a bland wallpaper that most people ignore. There is music playing in elevators, shopping malls, etc. and people often lump classical music together with string orchestra versions of "Ebb Tide" and "The Way We Were." Movies have also done a lot to anaesthetize people to classical music. We know that if Mozart is playing, the character is a snob. That is all we need to know.
I think you are expecting too much of people, B.W. You put a glass of Chateau Lafite in front of someone who has drunk wine out of box all their life and, naturally, they are going to slam it down wipe off their chin and say, "Where are the peanuts?"
My appreciation of Mozart comes from soaking it up all my life. I have a lot of personal experience with Mozart and his music. If I walk into a room and the Jupiter symphony is playing, my ears perk up. Not true for most people.
Always one to be humble, I can think of many areas where I am not discerning. I can pass by some wonderful vintage car on the street and not even notice it. To me, cars are merely a means of transportation.
Who's to say Mozart is more important than a '57 Chevy in a state of perfection?

[Joy]

Don't take it too hard, BW, a lot of people just don't seem to 'hear' what we hear. Just be especially glad you enjoy it as much as you do and think of what all these people are missing out on. That's why I don't play classical music for just anyone. I only play it for friends who I know will appreciate it, it's much easier on the nerves that way and doesn't get you frustrated!

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[King Stephen]

Originally posted by Joy:
Don't take it too hard, BW, a lot of people just don't seem to 'hear' what we hear. Just be especially glad you enjoy it as much as you do and think of what all these people are missing out on. That's why I don't play classical music for just anyone. I only play it for friends who I know will appreciate it, it's much easier on the nerves that way and doesn't get you frustrated!

Joy, you hit the so called nail right on the head. I agree 100% with what you wrote.

[v russo]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
I was playing Mozarts Jupiter Symphony to some friends, and amongs the beautiful and powerful development which starts at about 3 minutes in the first movement, with all the crazy counterpoint...they just keep talking without even noticing it. I dont understand. How can people just be deaf to such amazing moments in music. Another example is the epic melodic pattern near the end of the first movement of the 5th symphony, that to me is so moving, and when playing it people still dont feel anything.

[This message has been edited by Beyond Within (edited 05-21-2004).]

we have all had these experiences with friends, etc...

all I can say is that POP trained ears are deaf to classical forms (...and music over 3 and a half minutes long).



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v russo

[This message has been edited by v russo (edited 05-21-2004).]

[Pastorali]

No will, no way! Most of CM (and surely the biggest moments) is no easy listening and not to win by a short listen to. If one is not used then to listen to, his (her) ears are simply overtaxed.
Even my father, which is a big CM lover, says that he has enough of it after one or two hours. Then he is changing to Jazz. He can't understand, that I can listen to it the whole day. And Beethoven! So pompoes! he is merely a Haydn fan.

[King Stephen]

Originally posted by Pastorali:
No will, no way! Most of CM (and surely the biggest moments) is no easy listening and not to win by a short listen to. If one is not used then to listen to, his (her) ears are simply overtaxed.
Even my father, which is a big CM lover, says that he has enough of it after one or two hours. Then he is changing to Jazz. He can't understand, that I can listen to it the whole day. And Beethoven! So pompoes! he is merely a Haydn fan.

With regards to getting to much of a good thing, I believe that to be true of ice cream and candy. When it comes to classical music we have such a wide diversity of compositions that it would take, at least me, a month of Sundays to even start to tire of it. Better then 500 years of music would take a liftime and more to listen to. As far a pop, if "new stuff" did not come along at a fast rate it would self distruct. Case in point Look how long each period of classical music last and then look at the rate POP changes. Please don't get me wrong, all music has a place in our world. It is just that there is so much in the classical realm
to hear and enjoy that I personally do not have time for that which does not "Turn me on".

[Beyond Within]

"Always one to be humble, I can think of many areas where I am not discerning. I can pass by some wonderful vintage car on the street and not even notice it. To me, cars are merely a means of transportation.
Who's to say Mozart is more important than a '57 Chevy in a state of perfection?"

I think the ability to discern is something people are born with or arent. I may not be able to tell what cars are lame and cliched, and what are works of art - but if I learned about cars, and spent some time researching them I think I could aquire this ability. Whereas some people can learn all the music theory, play several instruments, and yet still listen to trashy radio-rock. I think its a trait your born with or not, the ability to percieve beauty.

[urtextmeister]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:

"Always one to be humble, I can think of many areas where I am not discerning. I can pass by some wonderful vintage car on the street and not even notice it. To me, cars are merely a means of transportation.
Who's to say Mozart is more important than a '57 Chevy in a state of perfection?"

[BI think the ability to discern is something people are born with or arent. I may not be able to tell what cars are lame and cliched, and what are works of art - but if I learned about cars, and spent some time researching them I think I could aquire this ability. Whereas some people can learn all the music theory, play several instruments, and yet still listen to trashy radio-rock. I think its a trait your born with or not, the ability to percieve beauty.

[/B]

Are you saying that if one listens to trashy radio-rock, that one cannot perceive beauty?
If so, I disagree. I, for one, participate fully in trashy pop culture, but am always simultaneously involved in art music.

I do agree that knowledge is not a guarantee of discernment or appreciation. Likewise, the person who has no technical knowledge of music can appreciate classical music as much as anyone else. I think exposure and familiarity is very important, however. Classical music may be an acquired taste...

[v russo]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
"Always one to be humble, I can think of many areas where I am not discerning. I can pass by some wonderful vintage car on the street and not even notice it. To me, cars are merely a means of transportation.
Who's to say Mozart is more important than a '57 Chevy in a state of perfection?"

I think the ability to discern is something people are born with or arent. I may not be able to tell what cars are lame and cliched, and what are works of art - but if I learned about cars, and spent some time researching them I think I could aquire this ability. Whereas some people can learn all the music theory, play several instruments, and yet still listen to trashy radio-rock. I think its a trait your born with or not, the ability to percieve beauty.

some interesting points sir...



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v russo