when people seem completely deaf, in the face of perfection

[cosplusisin]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
"Always one to be humble, I can think of many areas where I am not discerning. I can pass by some wonderful vintage car on the street and not even notice it. To me, cars are merely a means of transportation.
Who's to say Mozart is more important than a '57 Chevy in a state of perfection?"

I think the ability to discern is something people are born with or arent. I may not be able to tell what cars are lame and cliched, and what are works of art - but if I learned about cars, and spent some time researching them I think I could aquire this ability. Whereas some people can learn all the music theory, play several instruments, and yet still listen to trashy radio-rock. I think its a trait your born with or not, the ability to percieve beauty.

i take some offence to this, where you call it "trashy radio-rock". For me it was this that first got me into music of any form... Nirvana was my favorite band for quite a while, and it was their music that got me into playnig guitar. slowly, over the last ten years, my musical taste has become different, but the whole time I stayed with rock type stuff.... i have found so much beauty in rock music... not all of it... not say, nickelback.. there's no substance in that. but a band like radiohead or tool or pink floyd. you can hear the emotion in their music just as you do in Beethoven's.. oh yeah, and my point... it was only last january (5 months ago) that I started getting into "classical" music. I found out about Beethoven. I had no classical training. i've been playing music by ear for 11 years though. i can hear beauty in any music that has it. sometimes... sometimes a loud distorted guitar can be as powerful as a whole orchestra.

oh and by the way, for anyone interested, there is a classical pianist, christopher o riley, who is a huge fan of the band radiohead, and he's done piano versions of many of their songs. you can listen to radiohead from a classical perspective at his website: www.christopheroriley.com
put the cursor over the second column from the right and click (multimedia)... most of the songs are radiohed unless otherwise specified.

(whew)

[cosplusisin]

oh.. and i might add that i've had the same experience as you, BW with certain rock music, as well as classical... it does get annoying... you say "listen to this part right here..." and there's no reaction, or they talk above it.. as if they didn't even listen.

[Beyond Within]

Originally posted by cosplusisin:
i take some offence to this, where you call it "trashy radio-rock".

When I say radio-rock, I dont mean all rock that is on the radio. I mean rock music that is designed from conception to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Such as Nickelback and staind. I personally love Tool - their bass/drum/guitar interaction can be mystically beautiful - especially on lateralus. Danney Carey is the greatest drummer I have ever heard. Stravinsky would appreciate his polyrythm work.

The ability to percieve beauty may also lay dormant for many years, and varying from person to person, require different amounts of provocation before showing itself. When I was 12 years old I liked Everclear and hated Mozart. I was just immature. In some people, their eyes can never open!

[This message has been edited by Beyond Within (edited 05-24-2004).]

[cosplusisin]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
When I say radio-rock, I dont mean all rock that is on the radio. I mean rock music that is designed from conception to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Such as Nickelback and staind. I personally love Tool - their bass/drum/guitar interaction can be mystically beautiful - especially on lateralus. Danney Carey is the greatest drummer I have ever heard. Stravinsky would appreciate his polyrythm work.
[This message has been edited by Beyond Within (edited 05-24-2004).]

wow, that is very interesting. because the particular example i was thinking of (about people not listening when you want them to) is the part in "46 & 2" right when the drums go crazy, and the guitar does that little high slide down that goes along with the bass drums and then soon after it goes into the part "step into my shadow...", with the bass going from the D to the B flat over I guess the guitar ostinato with the changing tone.

by your post i really didn't think you listened to tool, but i am very happy that you do. it shows me how universal music really is.
and yes, I also believe Danny Carey to be the best drummer i've heard.

from what I've heard, I think if Beethoven lived today, he'd be in a band like Tool.


[This message has been edited by cosplusisin (edited 05-24-2004).]

[Pastorali]

Originally posted by cosplusisin:
I also believe Danny Carey to be the best drummer i've heard.

from what I've heard, I think if Beethoven lived today, he'd be in a band like Tool.


[This message has been edited by cosplusisin (edited 05-24-2004).]

John Bonham would be upside down in his grave, if he would hear this! Basicly I'm glad, Beethoven came not into our world of today. Also the Master himself wouldn't be able to create and publish the same great music, like he did in his time. I thank god, he had not to struggle with this tasteless and silly monkey business, we have today.
Look to Beethoven's career. Up from beginning he increased constantly and reached the top in his latest days. If he were a Rockstar, he had to stop writing at opus 20 and up from then just playing all his old stuff from earlier days...

[urtextmeister]

We have had this wonderfully pointless discussion before.

Beethoven was trained to be in the musical mainstream and certainly embraced all of the musical trends and styles of his day. He wanted to be paid reasonable well for his work (he didn't do it purely for art's sake). His later works were beyond the comprehension of his contemporaries (and many of us in the 21st century for that matter), but he didn't hide away in the mountains and compose without regard for his musical period.

Who knows what Beethoven would be if he were reborn in this age? It is probably pointless to speculate. I am not convinced, however, that he couldn't turn up as a musician in some popular genre.

Raymond Chandler made the point ( I believe this was in the fifties) that no one had yet written the "War and Peace" of the mystery novel genre, but he did preclude the possiblity that someone would. Maybe it is the same with popular forms of music. Maybe if Beethoven were in rock or some other genre, he would produce the first real masterpiece.

[v russo]

Originally posted by cosplusisin:
i take some offence to this, where you call it "trashy radio-rock". For me it was this that first got me into music of any form... Nirvana was my favorite band for quite a while, and it was their music that got me into playnig guitar. slowly, over the last ten years, my musical taste has become different, but the whole time I stayed with rock type stuff.... i have found so much beauty in rock music... not all of it... not say, nickelback.. there's no substance in that. but a band like radiohead or tool or pink floyd. you can hear the emotion in their music just as you do in Beethoven's.. oh yeah, and my point... it was only last january (5 months ago) that I started getting into "classical" music. I found out about Beethoven. I had no classical training. i've been playing music by ear for 11 years though. i can hear beauty in any music that has it. sometimes... sometimes a loud distorted guitar can be as powerful as a whole orchestra.

oh and by the way, for anyone interested, there is a classical pianist, christopher o riley, who is a huge fan of the band radiohead, and he's done piano versions of many of their songs. you can listen to radiohead from a classical perspective at his website: www.christopheroriley.com
put the cursor over the second column from the right and click (multimedia)... most of the songs are radiohed unless otherwise specified.

(whew)

I think we all get caught up in to much "labeling" of various musical forms. You are correct in saying that a powerful rock guitar progression can be as powerful as Beethoven or any other classical music.

Remember, without folk music there would be no classical music as we know it today....or at all, for that matter.



------------------
v russo