Gone With the Wind

[stude_ham]

LVB's Sonata for Piano and Cello #5 appears to me to contain 4 mysterious notes towards the end of the 2nd movement which very much sound like the opening notes to the theme of the 1938 movie Gone With the Wind.

What is amazing is that LVB does not delop those notes but rather just leaves them alone as link between the piano and the cello and then never returns to those notes. The next time they are heard is in the Tara theme of the movie mentioned above.

Has this been noticed by anyone else?

Stude Ham

[Peter]

I was thinking of Gone with the Wind myself only yesterday in connection with Elgar's 2nd symphony (slow movement). Will listen out for the Beethoven!

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'Man know thyself'

[Ateach Asc]

That is quite correct! Those 4 notes at the end of the 2nd movement of this exquisitie LVB sonata are inded the same 4 notes that open the movie *Gone With The Wind*.

This rather intriguing observation was mentioned on the Canadian radio program *Take Five*, and sent me to the nearest copy of the work. In my case it was a Yoyo Ma and Emmanuel Ax performance and at about 10 minutes into the work you hear those notes... at first exactly as they sound in that pot boiler movie of the late 30's.

Those notes are never developed anywhere else. Which makes their appearance another one of those delicious LVB musical mysteries.

[Michael]

I mentioned this "Gone with the Wind" similarity on another classical website some years ago. In my usual facetious way, I expressed amazement that Beethoven had so blatantly stolen the famous film theme. I was informed, in all seriousness, that Beethoven had written the tune well over a century before Max Steiner. I was suitably chastened and vowed never again to try to be funny, and I kept that vow for almost a week.
Incidentally (and seriously, folks), has anyone noticed that part of the slow movement of the "Emperor" Concerto resembles the song "Somewhere" from West Side Story by Leonard Bernstein, himself no mean Beethoven conductor? Just listen to the second part of the orchestral opening. I wonder was Lenny subconsciously influenced by his favourite composer?
Michael

[Joy]

Originally posted by Michael:
I mentioned this "Gone with the Wind" similarity on another classical website some years ago. In my usual facetious way, I expressed amazement that Beethoven had so blatantly stolen the famous film theme. I was informed, in all seriousness, that Beethoven had written the tune well over a century before Max Steiner. I was suitably chastened and vowed never again to try to be funny, and I kept that vow for almost a week.
Incidentally (and seriously, folks), has anyone noticed that part of the slow movement of the "Emperor" Concerto resembles the song "Somewhere" from West Side Story by Leonard Bernstein, himself no mean Beethoven conductor? Just listen to the second part of the orchestral opening. I wonder was Lenny subconsciously influenced by his favourite composer?
Michael

Good to hear from you again Michael! I have definitely heard that similarity in the Piano Concerto #5. It's a beautiful haunting melody to say the least and one of my favourites. I had the priviledge of attending Beethoven's Emperor in a live performance last week at the Symphony Hall with none other than pianist Andre Watts performing with the orchestra, one of his signature pieces. A rare treat to say the least. He got rave reviews and several ovations! What an evening of musical bliss! Superb!



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[lvbfanatic]

Amazing discussion of musical observations that hit ever so subtly in my head. Both of the above, the Tara theme and Somewhere from WSS can be heard, even if not note for note.

There is yet another Beethoven bit of music, and this time it's Beethoven inadvertantly (?) copying himself. Did you ever try to hum to yourself the very opening bars of the 3rd Sonata for P&C just after, or before, you also hummed to yourself the powerful launch of the 4th movement of LVB's 5th Symphony?

Did you notice the similarity? It almost seems as if the creative ambers of the 5th symphony spilled out into the sonata.

I think that was possible to happen in the silence of the composer's caverns simply because the two works are very closely related by Opus numbers...



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A Calm Sea and A Prosperous Voyage

[melvyn]

LVB's Sonata for Piano and Cello #5 appears to me to contain 4 mysterious notes towards the end of the 2nd movement which very much sound like the opening notes to the theme of the 1938 movie Gone With the Wind.

That is quite correct! Those 4 notes at the end of the 2nd movement of this exquisitie LVB sonata are inded the same 4 notes that open the movie *Gone With The Wind*.

I got my CDs out and tried to find these mysterious notes, but couldn't find them. I thought I must have been listening to the wrong piece, so I played the whole of the slow movement from the beginning. No wonder I couldn't find them. They are nowhere near the end, but around half way through.

In case anybody else is still searching, we're talking about the Cello Sonata No.5 in D major (NOT Op.5 which also just happens to be a Cello Sonata) It's Op.102, No.2, Second movement (adagio).

My version lasts for 8'34, and the notes occur at 4'38. Hardly towards the end.

Yes, it's quite weird to hear this theme suddenly appear. Obviously the movie must have left a great impression on Beethoven

Melvyn.

[melvyn]

Originally posted by lvbfanatic:
Did you notice the similarity? It almost seems as if the creative ambers of the 5th symphony spilled out into the sonata.

Yes there is a similarity there, although an entirely different mood of course.

The symphony was finished near the end of 1807, and the Cello Sonata in the middle of 1808, so that would support your theory.

In between those 2 works he composed 'Als Die Geliebte Sich Trennen Wollte' for Solo Voice and Piano (Woo132) at the end of 1807, and the Op.70 Piano Trios in the first half of 1808, so perhaps you can also find some similarities there.

Melvyn.

[lvbfanatic]

Qoting Melvin

"""""
Yes there is a similarity there, although an entirely different mood of course.

The symphony was finished near the end of 1807, and the Cello Sonata in the middle of 1808, so that would support your theory.

In between those 2 works he composed 'Als Die Geliebte Sich Trennen Wollte' for Solo Voice and Piano (Woo132) at the end of 1807, and the Op.70 Piano Trios in the first half of 1808, so perhaps you can also find some similarities there.
""""

The Woo132 cited does indeed have a resemblance to to the 2nd movement of the Ghost Trio. Just follow along the accompinament line in the W00132 to pick up on that.

Another similarity appears to be the very last part of the Piano and Cello Sonata #5 and the last part of the Archduke Trio. Again, when heard conjointly, one following the other, it becomes difficult for me to separate these two bits of musaic when listening to them in my head. Would anyone else have noticed this delicious bit of resemblance?

[Michael]

There is a theme in the Fourth Symphony which appears to me to be identical with one in the Hammerklavier sonata. In the symphony, it comes at the very end of the exposition section of the second movement, and in the sonata it appears in the first movement as the first theme in the second “group” – just where the key changes to G major. The similarity is amazing.

Michael