Beethoven a composer without feeling for the piano?

[ruudp]

I had a heated discussion with a pianist a few days ago.
She claimed that beethoven wrote pianomusic out of the pure compositoral aspect and NOT as a pianist, She stated that Ferenc Liszt for example wrote music which is written as a pianist and which lies comfortably in one's hand.I stated that beethoven stretched the piano to it's limits and thus thought VERY like a pianist and wrote music divine for the piano. Now I'm curious to know what you hold of this claim and whom you think is right..

regards,
Ruud

[Gurn Blanston]

Ruud,
Since I don't play the piano, I don't know if my opinion has any validity, but I do know that Beethoven never did ANYTHING merely for the "compositoral aspect", he was the best pianist of his time and was always very conscious of doing things that were possible. I might suggest that if she has trouble playing Beethoven, it is more the fault of her technique than of his. As he told the young lady who was to sing the soprano in the 9th, when she said that he hadn't written properly for the voice, he must not understand how to do so, he replied that if she would practice a bit more, the notes would come. And they did. Years later when she told the story to Thayer she was quite embarrased over it, realizing that her youth had caused such an error of judgement on her part. Perhaps with your friend it is just the same? In any case, some good advice for you to close this out: never argue with women.


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Chris]

Originally posted by ruudp:
She claimed that beethoven wrote pianomusic out of the pure compositoral aspect and NOT as a pianist...

That is so ridiculous I am speechless. Beethoven was a pianist. He played his own pieces. How could he not compose as a pianst?

[Amalie]

I think I can possibly see where Ruud's piano friend is coming from. No one ofcourse wrote anything as great as Beethoven's five piano concerto's and sonatas. However, though these are of magnificent pieces for any good pianist to play. Beethoven's purpose - if I could put it like that - had a far wider artistic, indeed philosophical scope than just writing a compositional piece for the piano.
As we know his themes are life, fate, nature and the universe and mans place in it. In that sense I can understand what the lady is saying, in that he was more of a compositional composer in the sense of having wider motifs in his music than for instance, Liszt who wrote quite different music for the piano which in intended I think more that Beethoven to be a showcase for the instrument itself and the player.
This is a difficult point though, because Beethoven also could be said to be the pianists pianist, but I think there is an element of truth nevertheless in what she says, because I always feel listening to Liszt brilliant though he is, may be that one is always aware that one is listening to piano music written by great stylists and exponents of the piano, whereas magically in Beethoven I always feel that he transcends the instrument and indeed almost music itself in the power and greatness of the compositional genius that inspires him.
The difference I suppose is between an artist who is aspiring to reach the stars and one who already lives with the Gods.

****

Ruud, there is a link here to a previous thread about Liszt and Beethoven, I sure you will find it interesting reading. http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000101.html


Liszt is often called a transcendental composer, but I should add that this is in an entirely different sense to using the word in connection with Beethoven.
Liszt transcendentalism is a formal thing concerned with the way that he modified piano technique and the thematic structure of a work.
Beethoven is transcendental in a far wider and greater sense in that he is aiming at no less than in an entirely altered state of being so that man is filled with the transforming effects of eg. love, joy, and truth and directed to the ennobling of the universe.
You know what I mean!




[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited 05-03-2004).]

[ruudp]

Originally posted by Amalie:
I think I can possibly see where Ruud's piano friend is coming from. No one ofcourse wrote anything as great as Beethoven's five piano concerto's and sonatas. However, though these are of magnificent pieces for any good pianist to play. Beethoven's purpose - if I could put it like that - had a far wider artistic, indeed philosophical scope than just writing a compositional piece for the piano.
As we know his themes are life, fate, nature and the universe and mans place in it. In that sense I can understand what the lady is saying, in that he was more of a compositional composer in the sense of having wider motifs in his music than for instance, Liszt who wrote quite different music for the piano which in intended I think more that Beethoven to be a showcase for the instrument itself and the player.
This is a difficult point though, because Beethoven also could be said to be the pianists pianist, but I think there is an element of truth nevertheless in what she says, because I always feel listening to Liszt brilliant though he is, may be that one is always aware that one is listening to piano music written by great stylists and exponents of the piano, whereas magically in Beethoven I always feel that he transcends the instrument and indeed almost music itself in the power and greatness of the compositional genius that inspires him.
The difference I suppose is between an artist who is aspiring to reach the stars and one who already lives with the Gods.

****

Ruud, there is a link here to a previous thread about Liszt and Beethoven, I sure you will find it interesting reading. http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000101.html


Liszt is often called a transcendental composer, but I should add that this is in an entirely different sense to using the word in connection with Beethoven.
Liszt transcendentalism is a formal thing concerned with the way that he modified piano technique and the thematic structure of a work.
Beethoven is transcendental in a far wider and greater sense in that he is aiming at no less than in an entirely altered state of being so that man is filled with the transforming effects of eg. love, joy, and truth and directed to the ennobling of the universe.
You know what I mean!


[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited 05-03-2004).]

Thnx for the REALLY interesting link amalie I read it out at once.
I do agree with you that liszt wrote music SPECIFIC for a pianist but to state then that beethoven was the opposite was too much to handle for me.
I find B's music indeed trancedental in a HUGE way, one only has to listen to the waldsteinsonata for instance *aurora which is the french nickname suits it as well* or the appassionata to sense what great music pianistic or not IS...

greetz ruud.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by ruudp:
I had a heated discussion with a pianist a few days ago.
She claimed that beethoven wrote pianomusic out of the pure compositoral aspect and NOT as a pianist, She stated that Ferenc Liszt for example wrote music which is written as a pianist and which lies comfortably in one's hand.I stated that beethoven stretched the piano to it's limits and thus thought VERY like a pianist and wrote music divine for the piano. Now I'm curious to know what you hold of this claim and whom you think is right..

regards,
Ruud

Good heavens!!!!!! And I've been amazed at how pianistic Beethoven's piano music is--how he brings out the sonorities of the instrument in a way that his predecessors did not. It may be true that the music is purely ABSTRACT vs being programmtic but those piano works should only be played on piano.

[urtextmeister]

Hmm.

Hmm.

Having struggled with most of the sonatas (OK, about half) as a pianist, I would have to say I agree and disagree with your friend, Ruud.
Yes, some stuff is damned awkward. I have often cussed out the master while trying to work out some passages, but I think in the long run, it is all possible and it is all necessary.
Some say that Beethoven, like another great master, Bach-
(The following is for Rod. All others may skip it and proceed to the next paragraph) DID I SAY BACH, I MEANT TO SAY HANDEL.
-only composed with great concepts in mind and was heedless in regard to the instrument. I think Beethoven was keenly aware of the piano and all instruments he was writing for. I think maybe he wanted us to struggle. He wanted to push the piano and the player to the limits. I often say with some composers that it sounds harder than it really is. Or, it sounds easy but is actually hard. With Beethoven, I think it often sounds hard and it is hard. But the struggle is part of the whole experience. I think we can see from Beethoven's sketchbooks that nothing was easy for him. Maybe it shouldn't be easy for us pianists either. I don't mean to say that we should all practice our scales all day, but that we should never let the thorny difficulties of the piano writing stand in the way of the ideal waiting at the other end.

I will now find Amalie's link and read it.

[Rod]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
Hmm.

Hmm.

Having struggled with most of the sonatas (OK, about half) as a pianist, I would have to say I agree and disagree with your friend, Ruud.
Yes, some stuff is damned awkward. I have often cussed out the master while trying to work out some passages, but I think in the long run, it is all possible and it is all necessary.
Some say that Beethoven, like another great master, Bach-
(The following is for Rod. All others may skip it and proceed to the next paragraph) DID I SAY BACH, I MEANT TO SAY HANDEL.
-only composed with great concepts in mind and was heedless in regard to the instrument. I think Beethoven was keenly aware of the piano and all instruments he was writing for. I think maybe he wanted us to struggle. He wanted to push the piano and the player to the limits. I often say with some composers that it sounds harder than it really is. Or, it sounds easy but is actually hard. With Beethoven, I think it often sounds hard and it is hard. But the struggle is part of the whole experience. I think we can see from Beethoven's sketchbooks that nothing was easy for him. Maybe it shouldn't be easy for us pianists either. I don't mean to say that we should all practice our scales all day, but that we should never let the thorny difficulties of the piano writing stand in the way of the ideal waiting at the other end.

I will now find Amalie's link and read it.

You can remove the reference to me.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[AndrewMyers]

Believe it or not, I have actually heard this criticism of Beethoven before - I think particularly in reference to his later sonatas, which he composed without actually playing them, because his hearing was gone by that stage. But I agree with urtextmeister about the struggle being part of the music -even by this stage, I doubt B had FORGOTTEN how to play the piano! I don't know how anyone could listen to the finale of op 111 and say he had no understanding of the piano. No sympathy for the pianist perhaps!

But here's an even worse one - I think it was Sir Thomas Beecham who claimed Beethoven couldn't write melodies!!! The lengths people will go to to stir up arguments..

[Rod]

Originally posted by AndrewMyers:
Believe it or not, I have actually heard this criticism of Beethoven before - I think particularly in reference to his later sonatas, which he composed without actually playing them, because his hearing was gone by that stage. But I agree with urtextmeister about the struggle being part of the music -even by this stage, I doubt B had FORGOTTEN how to play the piano! I don't know how anyone could listen to the finale of op 111 and say he had no understanding of the piano. No sympathy for the pianist perhaps!

But here's an even worse one - I think it was Sir Thomas Beecham who claimed Beethoven couldn't write melodies!!! The lengths people will go to to stir up arguments..

Well, Beethoven stated his last 3 sonatas were his best if I remember rightly! From my perspective Beethoven certainly knew his pianos in all their nuances, despite his increasing deafness, that's why I think the music sounds better on the pianos of his time which have different characteristics to todays.

Forget 'Sir' Beecham's comments, infact forget Beecham altogether!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-04-2004).]

[urtextmeister]

First of all, allow me to apologize to Rod for my incessant and annoying habit of making reference to the Bach/Handel issue. I have the utmost respect for him and appreciate all of the contributions he makes to this website. There is no reason for me to be flippant.

Beethoven and melodies. I have heard a similar anecdote concerning Delius. Supposedly he was listening to Beethoven on the radio one day and cried out,"scales and arpeggios! Nothing but scales and arpeggios!"

One could easily make the case that Beethoven was not a great spinner of tunes. Take the Moonlight sonata for instance. First movement-nothing. Second movement-catchy tune, but fairly banal and sing-songy. Last movement-the theme is pretty much arpeggios. A tune comes in after a while, but it is kind of sketchy.

Some of his tunes could be quite dorky. Take the last movement of the clarinet trio for instance.

I think Beethoven was great because of what he did with tunes. That is why the huge variation sets are so wonderful. The tunes sometimes seem almost incidental. I would go so far as to say he deliberately chose some tunes that were banal or even ugly. As if to say, "this is what life gives me and this is what I make of it."

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:

Beethoven and melodies. I have heard a similar anecdote concerning Delius. Supposedly he was listening to Beethoven on the radio one day and cried out,"scales and arpeggios! Nothing but scales and arpeggios!"

Just a little quote from Leonard Bernstein that I think is appropriate here. He is writing about Tchaikowsky's 6th (and very melodius) Symphony: "I was amazed when I first studied this work to find how much of the symphony is derived from simple scales. Out of them grow themes, motives, figurations, counterpoint, bass lines, and even tunes." [From The Infinite Variety of Music--if you wish a more specific reference ask me.]

[urtextmeister]

i have noticed this also.
Two other examples from Tchaikowsky:
Grand pas de deux from Nutcracker-descending g major scale. Serenade for strings-also descending scales.
Interesting...

Beethoven, however, often presents a scale naked with very regular, deliberate rhythms. Same with broken chords. And yet it is great music.

[Sorrano]

And then again, some of the more popular melodies in all of classical music comes from Beethoven. The bagatelles contain wonderful melodies and not just the more popular ones such as Fur Elise.

[urtextmeister]

I think Beethoven could write beautiful tunes with the best of them, but, for his own mysterious reasons often chose to write less than elegant melodies. Wasn't he setting up a dichotomy between the mundane and sublime?

I am hinting at some of my favorite themes: irony and conflict.