Bach to Bach!

[Joy]

Slightly off the topic of Beethoven but still continuing with classical music. On NPR radio the played Bach's Brandenburg Concerto #3 then they played in comparison a new Brandenburg Concerto #7 in which Noam Elkies tries to recollect Bach's Concertos. Here's a piece written about it, "A composer by the name of Noam Elkies wrote a piece of music recently that not only pays tribute to its inspiration, Bach, but also attempts to continue a thread Bach started with his six Brandenburg Concertos. Elkies calls his music the Brandenburg Concerto No. 7. It's played by the Metamorphosen Chamber Orchestra."
I was wondering if anyone heard this new tune and what you thought of it as a continuing link to Bach's Brandenburg Concertos?


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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Amalie]

Joy,
I am sure the Branderburg concertos you heard were much better that the ones I heard recently on BBC radio 3, played by An English Orchestra - The Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment.
In my view it was not a good advertisement for the authentic movement, the sound was very thin, lacked atmosphere and depth, parts were really badly played and at times did not have that wonderful Bach sound.
I was tempted to switch off a couple of times but listened to the end.
I think I may have said this before, that I think that one of the paradoxes of the authentic music is that they profess this concern with authenticity and yet they seem to be further away in many cases from the spirit of that age than later more orchestral versions of the music are, which seem to me anyway to capture that essential spirit better.
I think that 20th century orchestral versions of baroque music brings out the potential of the music and simply sound better that authentic performances, but I must stress that is my personal view.
Having said all that, I do like listening to some authentic music such as - The Musicka Antiqua Cologne and the Academy of Ancient Music and Concensus Musicus of Vienna, under Nicholas Arnancourt.
One of my favourite early baroque ensembles is William Christie's Les Arts Florrisantes.

[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited 05-13-2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Amalie:
Joy,
I am sure the Branderburg concertos you heard were much better that the ones I heard recently on BBC radio 3, played by An English Orchestra - The Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment.
In my view it was not a good advertisement for the authentic movement, the sound was very thin, lacked atmosphere and depth, parts were really badly played and at times did not have that wonderful Bach sound.
I was tempted to switch off a couple of times but listened to the end.
I think I may have said this before, that I think that one of the paradoxes of the authentic music is that they profess this concern with authenticity and yet they seem to be further away in many cases from the spirit of that age than later more orchestral versions of the music are, which seem to me anyway to capture that essential spirit better.
I think that 20th century orchestral versions of baroque music brings out the potential of the music and simply sound better that authentic performances, but I must stress that is my personal view.
Having said all that, I do like listening to some authentic music such as - The Musicka Antiqua Cologne and the Academy of Ancient Music and Concensus Musicus of Vienna, under Nicholas Arnancourt.
One of my favourite early baroque ensembles is William Christie's Les Arts Florrisantes.

[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited 05-13-2004).]

Well from my experience Baroque can sound appauling on modern interpretations too - with regard to Handel they were universally so bad that Handel became virually forgotten as a serious composer until the authentic movement got its act together. That being said you can get awfull authentic interpretations too - Harnoncourts Handel is appauling, but his efforts were from the 70's and things have moved on since then. William Christie's Les Arts Florrisantes are very good from my experience, but usually so are the OAE.

By coincidence I am uploading some tracks from H's 12 Concerti Grossi Op.6 tomorrow at my Handel Group, you should check these out as I think they are a level above the Brandenburgs.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-13-2004).]

[King Stephen]

Originally posted by Joy:
Slightly off the topic of Beethoven but still continuing with classical music. On NPR radio the played Bach's Brandenburg Concerto #3 then they played in comparison a new Brandenburg Concerto #7 in which Noam Elkies tries to recollect Bach's Concertos. Here's a piece written about it, "A composer by the name of Noam Elkies wrote a piece of music recently that not only pays tribute to its inspiration, Bach, but also attempts to continue a thread Bach started with his six Brandenburg Concertos. Elkies calls his music the Brandenburg Concerto No. 7. It's played by the Metamorphosen Chamber Orchestra."
I was wondering if anyone heard this new tune and what you thought of it as a continuing link to Bach's Brandenburg Concertos?

The Brandenburg concertos performed by
The Boston Baroque (on period instruments) conducted by Martin Pearlman are as good, and in most cases, better then any avalible today. Pearlman has these come off in true baroque fashion. A real Bach treat.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Amalie:
Joy,
I am sure the Branderburg concertos you heard were much better that the ones I heard recently on BBC radio 3, played by An English Orchestra - The Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment.

[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited 05-13-2004).]

This is what I heard, Amalie! I have to admit though I do enjoy all of the Brandenberg Concertos! They're very pleasurable to listen too.



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Joy]

Originally posted by King Stephen:
The Brandenburg concertos performed by
The Boston Baroque (on period instruments) conducted by Martin Pearlman are as good, and in most cases, better then any avalible today. Pearlman has these come off in true baroque fashion. A real Bach treat.

Thanks for the recommendation, King.


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'Truth and beauty joined'

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited 05-13-2004).]

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well from my experience Baroque can sound appauling on modern interpretations too - with regard to Handel they were universally so bad that Handel became virually forgotten as a serious composer until the authentic movement got its act together. That being said you can get awfull authentic interpretations too - Harnoncourts Handel is appauling, but his efforts were from the 70's and things have moved on since then. William Christie's Les Arts Florrisantes are very good from my experience, but usually so are the OAE.

By coincidence I am uploading some tracks from H's 12 Concerti Grossi Op.6 tomorrow at my Handel Group, you should check these out as I think they are a level above the Brandenburgs.

Rod, I think you make a fair point there.
The authentic movement is surely right in saying that the large forces gathered say 50 years ago under Beecham, Hamilton Harty, etc. that played Handel were really far too large for the original scoring of the limited orchestral ensemble of Handel's day. But why is it that some of these post-war recordings sound so fantastically alive, atmospheric and exciting compared with the really quite anaemic sound that one gets from say some of the Hogwood recordings or even Eliot Gardner.
I have a recording of Hamilton Harty doing the Water Music and the Fire Works and some of the Concerti Grossi and the power of it is just incredible and for all the attention to detail of the authentic crowd quite simply just blows them away however accurate or not it may be to the original.
On a final note, I have Angela Hewitt playing Bach's English Suites originally for harpsichord but transcribed to piano and the sound is tremendous and yet the authentic people would look askance at it.
The point is I think that modern orchestral adaptions or piano ones seem to bring out the latent depth of the music as though it was waiting to be discovered which is simply missing if one sticks to the original instruments, scoring and orchestral makeup.
I shall look into the Handel's Concerti Grossi Op.6 tomorrow, thanks Rod.



[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited 05-13-2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Amalie:
Rod, I think you make a fair point there.
The authentic movement is surely right in saying that the large forces gathered say 50 years ago under Beecham, Hamilton Harty, etc. that played Handel were really far too large for the original scoring of the limited orchestral ensemble of Handel's day. But why is it that some of these post-war recordings sound so fantastically alive, atmospheric and exciting compared with the really quite anaemic sound that one gets from say some of the Hogwood recordings or even Eliot Gardner.
I have a recording of Hamilton Harty doing the Water Music and the Fire Works and some of the Concerti Grossi and the power of it is just incredible and for all the attention to detail of the authentic crowd quite simply just blows them away however accurate or not it may be to the original.
On a final note, I have Angela Hewitt playing Bach's English Suites originally for harpsichord but transcribed to piano and the sound is tremendous and yet the authentic people would look askance at it.
The point is I think that modern orchestral adaptions or piano ones seem to bring out the latent depth of the music as though it was waiting to be discovered which is simply missing if one sticks to the original instruments, scoring and orchestral makeup.
I shall look into the Handel's Concerti Grossi Op.6 tomorrow, thanks Rod.

[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited 05-13-2004).]

Well from my experience the size of orchestras used in authentic recordings is often LESS than what Handel had at his disposal, though admittedly his relatively small venues did not need huge orchestras. For the oratorios he had circa 25 strings. Some performances in London not long after his death involved 100s of musicians.

Regarding the sounds of Gardiner et al, I know what you are talking about, G's Handel recordings on Phillips Classics sound terribly dry with little or no ambience (but avoid Gardiner generally for Handel). But this is a recording and venue accoustics issue, not an instrumental one. Try Hogwood's account of Handels Op6 now at my site (see my profile for url) and tell me this sounds bad!

Regarding the harpsichord music, if it is any good it should sound best on a harpsichord, though modern models often sound terrible.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[urtextmeister]

Amalie makes a very interesting point and let me just barge in here with my modern instrument grossness and say, yes, I like Glenn Gould and Murray Periah recordings of baroque on piano and I have listened to modern orchestras play baroque music and felt an abject, guilty enjoyment.

First, in regard to piano, isn't the modern piano an "improvement" on earlier keyboard instruments. Please note the quotation marks. My point here is only that the piano was not developed in isolation from the harpsichord and clavichord; it was an attempt at furthering what they could do. It is well known that Bach loved the ability of the clavichord to play gradations of loud and soft without changing registration...

Here is the other thing: unlike a painting, which exists on its own and needs no explanation, a piece of music (in the traditional sense) needs a human being to interpret it, to filter it through their life experience and values and feelings preferred instrument and make a statement. This, I think, is more important than whether the violinist in row three is using a violin with lacquer from the year 1734 instead of 1732.

[Amalie]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
Amalie makes a very interesting point and let me just barge in here with my modern instrument grossness and say, yes, I like Glenn Gould and Murray Periah recordings of baroque on piano and I have listened to modern orchestras play baroque music and felt an abject, guilty enjoyment.

First, in regard to piano, isn't the modern piano an "improvement" on earlier keyboard instruments. Please note the quotation marks. My point here is only that the piano was not developed in isolation from the harpsichord and clavichord; it was an attempt at furthering what they could do. It is well known that Bach loved the ability of the clavichord to play gradations of loud and soft without changing registration...

Here is the other thing: unlike a painting, which exists on its own and needs no explanation, a piece of music (in the traditional sense) needs a human being to interpret it, to filter it through their life experience and values and feelings preferred instrument and make a statement. This, I think, is more important than whether the violinist in row three is using a violin with lacquer from the year 1734 instead of 1732.

Yes, Beethoven I think was always looking to extract the maximum musical content within the limitation of the technology of the pianos of his day. It is known that Beethoven fairly regularly changed his piano for the most 'modern' one avalaible.
He was therefore always at the forefront of musical technology because he knew that as the instrument became of a wider musical expression it added immesurably to the depth and power of his own music.