Beethoven and Brahms

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

I think we can thank the likes of Hanslick for the rivalries. It was more of a media thing in my mind--or a media generated thing.

It was very real - Clara Schumann was quite clear with Liszt as to her feelings and Wagner was certainly not short in his vitriol concerning Brahms. Liszt himself, always genial and polite, though occasionally warm to Brahms, never played any of his music in public. I agree Hanslick played a large part in fanning the flames.

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Pastorali:
Ah, Joy
You love this work, right? I don't know it since a long time and I must listen much more to it! I have also a transcriptn for Organ by Lionel Rogg from 1992 played by Hannefried Lucke, but honestly, that one waits to be explored by me.

Pastorali, give a listen to it if you haven't already, it's a goodie! As a matter of fact by coincidence, I heard this morning Variations on a Theme by Haydn with Conductor Yoel Levi
and Orchestra Atlanta Symphony Orchestra via my radio, great stuff!
Your transcription for organ sounds interesting. How do you like it?



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Joy:
At the Metropolitan Opera in New York City in March and April they performed The Ring and it took 4 Saturday performances to get through it because of it's length! I wonder if our old Wagner defender Chaszz, went to see any of these concerts. Chaszz, are you out there??!!

I’ve been away from this board for awhile now for unrelated personal reasons. I did see the Ring, Joy. It was given two additional times in addition to the Saturdays series you mention. Each of cycles 2 and 3 was performed within the space of one week, more the way the composer intended it. Let me say at the outset that the Ring is my least favorite work of Wagner’s as music. It contains a good deal of great music, but nowhere near eighteen hours’ worth. I prefer every one of his other mature operas, plus the Siegfried Idyll, to the Ring as pure music. I think he got in over his head in this 25-year effort; his literary intentions changed several times as he grew older, and it’s over-intellectualized. The leitmotive concept is productive more of great craftsmanship than great inspiration. It’s marvelous to hear how three or four leitmotive melodies can be brought together in a single line of text to arouse three or four different psychological connections, but as music to me a lot of it is second rate, compared with the musical glories of Meistersinger and Tristan and even the much earlier Lohengrin and Tannhauser.

For those iterested in reading further, I copy below a review I posted today on the website humanities.music.composers.wagner, where the Ring is widely worshipped and where my opinions are sometimes severely scorned:

I attended the second Met 'Ring' cycle two weeks ago and would like to
share some reactions to it. These are purely my subjective opinions
and make no pretense at being authoritative or objective.

First, I have criticised on this board the plot of the Ring,
particularly that of Gotterdaemerung, as being mawkish and awkward,
and not having the inevitability of true tragedy. A fine live
production performed within the confines of one week disabused me of
that notion, and I feel I did witness real tragedy. By the time
Brunnehilde was standing over Siegfried's body and singing the last
scene, the tragic atmosphere was overwhelming, and Greek in feeling.
The presentation of the four works in a restricted period of several
days brings probably the closet approximation we will ever have of the
3-day cycles of Athenian tragic drama. Arguably it represents the culmination of opera in light of its original intention to revive this ancient art form, including its music.

At the great Met 'Parsifal' of 2002, I 'discovered' the truism that a
Wagner work can be fully understood, even in plot, only by attending a
full performance in person. I hoped that this would be true of the
Ring, and was not disappointed.

Second, I thought Jon Frederic West was a standout as Siegfried. I'm
not an experienced judge of singing, but his voice seemed to me
effortlessly strong, mellifluous, expressive and untiring. Whether
he's a real heldentenor or not I don't know, but if I had to say 'yes'
or 'no' to avoid torture or win a princess, I'd say 'yes.'

Gabriele Schnaut, who took over the role in the second cycle, seemed
to me a poor Brunnehilde. Her voice often did not penetrate through
the orchestral sound and could not be heard. Also, particularly in
Walkure, her acting and body movement were grotesque. She had a way
of, at the climax of a phrase, throwing her face and chest forward and
thereby giving the impression that she was throwing up. Her acting was
better in the last two operas, but not her singing. In the last scene
of Gotterdaemerung, however, she did seem to come into her own and was
quite impressive vocally and as an actress. As I noted above, the
impression of tragic gloom in this final scene was extraordinary (and was amplified by the somber monumental set).

James Morris did the job for me as Wotan, both as a singer and actor.
I can conceive that others' performances may be stronger vocally, but
his presence was dignified, strong and moving and anchored the whole
cycle admirably. For the first time I felt real sympathy for this
character.

The sets and lighting were superb, as I've come to expect of the Met.
Traditional but imaginative, involving, and at times magical in the
use of the scrim curtain. There was very little sunlight, even in the
Forest Murmurs scene, which I always imagine as at least dappled with
light. In this case it was dark with only a few hints of sunlight in
the upper reaches of the trees. The designer evidently wanted to
project a sense of gloom throughout the cycle, until the sun finally
comes out at the very last moment, as the humans creep onstage and
wonder at the colossal ruins of the preceding era. I felt this was
taken too far, and that for emotional balance at least some scenes
should have been sunny, such as Siegfried and Brunnehild's at the end
of 'Siegfried' and the beginning of 'Gotterdaemerung'.

The orchestra was superb. The N.Y. Times that week had two articles on
the recent apparent weakness of James Levine, who seemingly has an
arrested case of early Parkinson's Disease or something of that
nature. Some orchestra members complained anonymously that his
conducting motions now are so gentle, and he slumps forward on his
chair so much by the end of an evening, that they cannot see him or
follow him and they are on their own. Others parried by saying that he
rehearses very intensely and thoroughly and that this is where the
real work is done. Levine himself claims eye contact rather than the
baton as his way of communicating. In any case, the sound and
performance could hardly have been better, from my experience. The
tempos were faster than one expects from Levine, and the music flowed
wonderfully. A small interesting aside was noticing that the song of
the woodbird is actually passed around in a relay among flute,
piccolo and clarinet, though it sounds like one unbroken melody. The
clarinetist throughout was sublime in interpreting the many beautiful
passages Wagner gives to the intrument, as was also the bass
clarinetist.

Finally I'll say something that will likely bring some bricks sailing
in my direction, unless possibly one recalls that this is only my
personal opinion.

To me the cycle was too long. When the good number of instances where
a character is retelling at great length what we already know, is
coupled with the fact that some of the music is not first rate and is
really just running up and down the scales (watch out, duck!), I think
each of the three later operas could have been cut by 20 - 30% and if
Wagner could have suffered a good editor, this would have been done.
Five hours of heavily orchestrated music a night (six with
intermissions) is too much for me. Although I love the Wagner
orchestra as much as life itself, I've had a case of oversaturation
for more than a week now, and have been capable of no more than
sipping at a little spare modern jazz. Actually I much prefer silence.
But hey, different strokes. No big deal. Being a painter and
passionate about visual art also, I probably don't have the genes to
imbibe as much music as some who post on these boards (there's a
fellow on the Beethoven Reference Site who claims to listen to music
twelve hours a day).

Except for Rhinegold and Walkure, which were given on consecutive
nights, the works were presented on alternate evenings. Beforehand I
wished that they were given on consecutive evenings as Wagner
intended. Now I appreciate the scheduling. I was overfull of music and
drama each time and needed the extra day off to recover my appetite
for more, which I invariably did. I doubt I could digest the whole
even as well as I did, if it were on four consecutive days.

Again I say this is only my personal reaction.

And I hope that in spite of my novice status as a Wagnerian, some of
this has been interesting to some of you.

Charles

[Note to the Beethoven board: I can’t quite recall who I meant that claims to listen to music 12 hours a day. I do recall that in a certain southwestern U.S. state, they don’t do anything small, including the telling of tall tales. :-)]


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 05-12-2004).]

[Amalie]

Good to see you back Chaszz.
I very much enjoyed reading your write up of the Mets performances of the Ring cycle, from what I have heard from other people it was world class. Certainly James Levine is one of the worlds great conductors at the present day.
I certainly wish I could have been there, but Concorde is out of service now.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I’ve been away from this board for awhile now for unrelated personal reasons. I did see the Ring, Joy.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 05-12-2004).]

Glad to have you back Chaszz! Thanks for the information conerning The Ring. I figured you went to see it. What a production!

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Amalie:

Good to see you back Chaszz.
I very much enjoyed reading your write up of the Mets performances of the Ring cycle, from what I have heard from other people it was world class. Certainly James Levine is one of the worlds great conductors at the present day.

Amalie, I aggre with you about James Levine. I like his conducting too. But have you heard about his condition? He seems to be suffering from tremors in his right arm. Here's an article on him;
"James Levine confirms that he suffers from tremors in his left arm and leg that have plagued him for about a decade but says the condition has not affected his work at all… the 60-year-old conductor told the New York Times that his doctor has not been able to make a diagnosis but the shaking has not worsened over the last ten years … Levine says, “It’s just part of me… I take medication prescribed for me, but it is not strong and not with noticeable side effects.” It doesn’t appear to be slowing him down either, Levine is expected to begin his new gig as music director of the Boston Symphony this fall while continuing to conduct at the Met."

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Pastorali]

Originally posted by Joy:
Pastorali, give a listen to it if you haven't already, it's a goodie! As a matter of fact by coincidence, I heard this morning Variations on a Theme by Haydn with Conductor Yoel Levi
and Orchestra Atlanta Symphony Orchestra via my radio, great stuff!
Your transcription for organ sounds interesting. How do you like it?

Joy
Is this another transcription, with Orchestra? That one for Organ I listened today is a very interesting one. Sounds great, but I wouldn't like to listen every day to. It's heavily digestible...



[This message has been edited by Pastorali (edited 05-12-2004).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by King Stephen:
I get a bit agitated when I hear or read anything comparing Beethoven and Brahms. To me it's like comparing apples and oranges. But for the fact the Brahms believed in the "Old" school of compostion, what really do they have in common. Brahms had a tendency to be reserved in his works, maybe we can exclude the B-flat piano concerto, where as we know LvB broke down many barriers. I had a music teacher say to me that "Brahms was dull and boring". Oh, How I wanted to throttle that person. The teacher went on to say that Brahms motives were made up of just 3 and 4 notes. Bravo, to stupidity, for didn't LvB use very short motives also? I am from the school that believes that Johannes Brahms was one of the greatest composers of the 2nd half of the 19th century. Athough he felt dogged by Beethoven's music it did not stop him from following Beethoven in a structural sense. I think that Wagner's statement that after LvB the symphony, as know then, was dead. Listen to the 4 symphoies of Brahms. What a revelation these works are. But don't stop there, listen to his chamber music, choral works, solo piano works. If after this world wind experience the listner finds Brahms music not to their liking then all I can say is it is their loss. Finally, Brahms did not like the comparison of himself to Beethoven.
And yes, I like the term Bach, Beethoven and Brahms.

I love Wagner's music and I love Brahms' also. I would like to echo the suggestion
of the Hadyn Variations as a good place to start for a novice, as this was Brahms' last dress rehearsal before he was able to get used to the 'tramp, tramp, tramp of a giant like Beethoven behind' him, and finally write a symphony of his own, after the critics and public had been calling for one for years. I have never missed a grand thrill and chill when listening to these wonderful variations, with their great inspiration and widely varied palette of orchestral effects and colors.

The two principals in the Wagner-Brahms rivalry respected each other more than their followers did. As said above, critics like Hanslick and his circle did their best to stoke the fires. Hanslick never doubted Wagner's genius, but wanted to control what he wrote and make it more classical. As if a critic should set the forms. (Two years ago the architecture critic of the NY Times had the gall to write that as a critic he felt he should set the agenda for architecture. What rot. As if Frank Llloyd Wright or Michelangelo would look to a mere critic for direction in their architecture. I wrote a letter to the paper calling him in essence a conceited toad (which was published)). And as if a Hanslick should tell a Wagner, or any great composer, what to do next. Or can one imagine Beethoven giving as much as a rat's tail to know what a critic thought he should do next!

Brahms had the greatest respect for Wagner and wrote him asking for a copy of the score of Tristan. While Wagner did speak disparangly of Brahms he later recanted. He took back his statement about the symphony being a thing of the past after he noted its continued vitality under Brahms, Dvorak and Bruckner. After Parsifal had premiered, Wagner was even planning to write six symphonies, when he died.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 05-13-2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I love Wagner's music and I love Brahms' also. I would like to echo the suggestion
of the Hadyn Variations as a good place to start for a novice, as this was Brahms' last dress rehearsal before he was able to get used to the 'tramp, tramp, tramp of a giant like Beethoven behind' him, and finally write a symphony of his own, after the critics and public had been calling for one for years. I have never missed a grand thrill and chill when listening to these wonderful variations, with their great inspiration and widely varied palette of orchestral effects and colors.

The two principals in the Wagner-Brahms rivalry respected each other more than their followers did. As said above, critics like Hanslick and his circle did their best to stoke the fires. Hanslick never doubted Wagner's genius, but wanted to control what he wrote and make it more classical. As if a critic should set the forms. (Two years ago the architecture critic of the NY Times had the gall to write that as a critic he felt he should set the agenda for architecture. What rot. As if Frank Llloyd Wright or Michelangelo would look to a mere critic for direction in their architecture. I wrote a letter to the paper calling him in essence a conceited toad (which was published)). And as if a Hanslick should tell a Wagner, or any great composer, what to do next. Or can one imagine Beethoven giving as much as a rat's tail to know what a critic thought he should do next!

Brahms had the greatest respect for Wagner and wrote him asking for a copy of the score of Tristan. While Wagner did speak disparangly of Brahms he later recanted. He took back his statement about the symphony being a thing of the past after he noted its continued vitality under Brahms, Dvorak and Bruckner. After Parsifal had premiered, Wagner was even planning to write six symphonies, when he died.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 05-13-2004).]

I'm not sure about Wagner's great respect!
From his 1879 Bayreuth Blatter he writes about an unnamed composer who masquerades as a "cabaret singer", poses in his "hallelujah periwig of Handel", dresses as a "jewish czardas fiddler" and then appears as a respectable symphonist as "number ten".

Brahms himself hated Tristan and when he reluctantly returned Wagner's Venusberg music, he requested his favourite opera Meistersinger, which infuriated Wagner who sent him a copy of Rheingold instead.



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'Man know thyself'

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Peter:


Brahms himself hated Tristan and when he reluctantly returned Wagner's Venusberg music, he requested his favourite opera Meistersinger, which infuriated Wagner who sent him a copy of Rheingold instead.

I know of this a bit differently, as Brahms requesting a copy of his favourite, Holländer, and Wagner with none to give, sent Rheingold instead...

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"Aaaaagnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi... PAM, PAM PA RAM PAM PAM..." (Missa Solemnis)

[Joy]

Originally posted by Pastorali:
Joy
Is this another transcription, with Orchestra? That one for Organ I listened today is a very interesting one. Sounds great, but I wouldn't like to listen every day to. It's heavily digestible...

[This message has been edited by Pastorali (edited 05-12-2004).]

It is an orchestral work and the Atlantic Symphony did a splendid job. Sounds like you got a hold of a good transcription for organ.
A quote from Brahms on the Romantic currents
around him, he called it, "the music of the future."


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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
I know of this a bit differently, as Brahms requesting a copy of his favourite, Holländer, and Wagner with none to give, sent Rheingold instead...

Here's a take on the story I was reading from the book, "The Lives of the Great Composers," "Brahms biggest indulgence was his collection of original music manuscripts. He owned a copy of the autograph score of Wagner's Tannhauser, which he got as a gift from the pianist Karl Tausig. It turned out it was not Tausig's to give away. Wagner asked for it's return and, with great and guarded politeness, Brahms did return it. Wagner then sent him an autograph of Das Rheingold."

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:
I'm not sure about Wagner's great respect!
From his 1879 Bayreuth Blatter he writes about an unnamed composer who masquerades as a "cabaret singer", poses in his "hallelujah periwig of Handel", dresses as a "jewish czardas fiddler" and then appears as a respectable symphonist as "number ten".

Brahms himself hated Tristan and when he reluctantly returned Wagner's Venusberg music, he requested his favourite opera Meistersinger, which infuriated Wagner who sent him a copy of Rheingold instead.

I didn't know of that Blatter quote. If he speaks about Symphony No. 10, it does appear he means Brahms. On the other hand, I recall one or two positive comments from Wagner about Brahms in Cosima's Diaries, but it would take too long to find them now. I didn't say Wagner had 'great' respect for Brahms, but that he respected him more than his own followers did. There is also, of course the well-known Wagner quote after hearing a work of Brahms, 'You see what can still be done with the old forms by someone who knows how to use them.' Alhtough this is qualified praise, it does show respect; and Wagner did later recant his blanket condemnation of 'the old forms', even as I said planning to write a series of symphonies of his own.

I do distinctly remember reading in the diaries that Brahms wrote Wagner asking for a score of Tristan, and Wagner had none available so sent Rheingold instead, with a note hoping it would serve as a substitute.

(It’s too bad the English translation of the diaries lacks a thorough overall index. One has recently been published but only in German.)

I also remember reading (not in the diaries) that Brahms wanted to attend the Ring premiere at Bayreuth but was leery of the furor his appearance would cause among the Wagner fanatics so stayed home. And also that he sent a large floral piece to Wagner’s funeral but Cosima disdained it as hypocritical, upon hearing of which Brahms sighed resignedly.

I may have somewhat exagerrated their respect for each other, due to my love of the music of each, in the way a child who has lived through a divorce may imagine his parents do really love each other. Still, I think they did respect each other more than than their rival camps of followers did.

The differing stories about which opera the Rheingold score was substituted for show, in my opinion, that it is fun to quote these tales on a bulletin board but that sometimes our knowledge is only as deep as the last book we have read, and is not exhaustive in the way a real scholar's would aim at being. I plead guilty myself to this, and to being a music fan whose real work is making paintings and not scholarship. Would I could shut myself up in all cases where I'm not completely sure of my sources, and I plan to try harder at this.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 05-14-2004).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Joy:
Glad to have you back Chaszz! Thanks for the information conerning The Ring. I figured you went to see it. What a production!

Thank you, Amalie and Joy both, for your warm welomes back.

Chaszz