Beethoven and Brahms

[King Stephen]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Crikey, where does one begin with Brahms' music? There is a lot of it, and all good. The 2 Piano Concertos, Violin Concerto and Violin & Cello Concerto are among the best Romantic Era concertos. And the four symphonies are all great, particularly #4.
My own interest is the chamber music, so I will list it in order of my preference, which is subject to change at any given listening:

Op 34 Piano Quintet (one of the 3 greatest of the genre)
All 3 Piano Quartets (but I love #1 in particular)
All 3 String Quartets (#1, in c minor, is darkly beautiful)
The 2 String Quintets
The 2 String Sextets
The Piano Trios

And then the sonatas and piano music, 3 piano sonatas
3 Violin Sonatas and a couple of movements
2 Cello Sonatas
The Intermezzos for piano Op 117
The Fantasias Op 116
The 3 Op of Pianostucke - 76, 118 & 119
Variationa & Fugue on a Theme by Handel Op 24
Variations on a Theme of Paganini Op 35

Well, that will get you started on Brahms, at least. Oh, and not to forget, the Overtures (Academic Festival is very nice) and the Hungarian Dances (particularly try the original version in piano 4-hands instead of the orcehstral version)...
Oh, King, I like Brahms too. Nice thread!

Gurn, Super listing. Any or all.


[This message has been edited by King Stephen (edited 05-09-2004).]

[v russo]

King,

Brahms was a fine composer, no doubt. His 4 symphonies are excellent. His Requiem is great as well. His late piano pieces are also very profound and memorable. His fire was a cool one, while B's was a 4 alarm. He was not the innovator that B was. His work is that of a more conservative romantic- but fine non-the-less. The great innovators after Beethoven were, Wagner, Brucker and eventually Mahler; who took sonata form to its very end.

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v russo

[King Stephen]

Originally posted by v russo:
King,

Brahms was a fine composer, no doubt. His 4 symphonies are excellent. His Requiem is great as well. His late piano pieces are also very profound and memorable. His fire was a cool one, while B's was a 4 alarm. He was not the innovator that B was. His work is that of a more conservative romantic- but fine non-the-less. The great innovators after Beethoven were, Wagner, Brucker and eventually Mahler; who took sonata form to its very end.

I see the Brahms vs Wagner camps are still live and well. I am personally in the Brahms camp although of the three composers you mention I must say I enjoy Bruckner very much, but Wagner and Mahler are not to my liking at all. I don't think , no, I know I would not survive sitting through a Wagner opera, oh! the pain. In all honesty I find Wagner very boring and Mahler dwells to much on death, of course that is only my opinon and again that's what makes music so wonderful , you can pick and choose what you like. Bigger is not always better.

[This message has been edited by King Stephen (edited 05-10-2004).]

[spaceray]

Originally posted by King Stephen:
[B]
Bigger is not always better.

B]

I once thought I might be able to enjoy Wagners smaller music,but it turns out he didn't write any.About a month ago I watched some of "The Ring" on TV but the music was so awful (to my ears ) that I muted it and played a cd of Mozart Piano Sonatas.

[Gurn Blanston]

[Amalie]

Originally posted by spaceray:
I once thought I might be able to enjoy Wagners smaller music,but it turns out he didn't write any.About a month ago I watched some of "The Ring" on TV but the music was so awful (to my ears ) that I muted it and played a cd of Mozart Piano Sonatas.

Spaceray,
I note what you say, but perhaps the best way of getting into Wagner, and let me tell you he does repay close listening is to chose certain highlights from 'The Ring' including the phenomenal opening section when Wagner depicts the creation of the universe, which is perhaps for me one of the greatest pieces of music ever written and from later in the Rhinegold,
The entrance of the Gods into Valhalla.
The Ring really got to me and now I love it, the story and the music is fascinating.
It is all a matter of personal taste, but initially give the music a chance to breathe and give it space, and you will find you will make room for it. Just Maybe.


BTW. I can hear Gurn's comments from here!

[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited 05-10-2004).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes, but the picture of someone watching the Ring and listening to Mozart Piano Sonatas is too much for me, I love it. If you love "big" orchestral music, Wagner is hard to beat. Got that adrenalin thing going bigtime. What really turns me off is the fawning worship of the adherents. I could listen to the music and try to make my own judgement, but I guess I'm afraid that MY brain will turn into zombie-mush too! You have to admit, the fervor of the chosen ones is downright scary, making your average Beethoven lover tepid by comparison, and even though I profess otherwise, I HAVE listened to Wagner, and while I admit it has its moments, they are not that great. I'll take a string quartet by Haydn, Mozart or Beethoven any day. Simple minds, simple pleasures, I guess


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Pastorali]

dito!

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
Also not mentioned yet, Variations on a theme of Haydn (St.Anthony Chorale), the Violin concerto,

How could I forget these!! Excellent choices!



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Joy]

Originally posted by spaceray:
I once thought I might be able to enjoy Wagners smaller music,but it turns out he didn't write any.About a month ago I watched some of "The Ring" on TV but the music was so awful (to my ears ) that I muted it and played a cd of Mozart Piano Sonatas.

At the Metropolitan Opera in New York City in March and April they performed The Ring and it took 4 Saturday performances to get through it because of it's length! I wonder if our old Wagner defender Chaszz, went to see any of these concerts. Chaszz, are you out there??!!



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Pastorali]

Originally posted by Joy:
How could I forget these!! Excellent choices!

Ah, Joy
You love this work, right? I don't know it since a long time and I must listen much more to it! I have also a transcriptn for Organ by Lionel Rogg from 1992 played by Hannefried Lucke, but honestly, that one waits to be explored by me.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by King Stephen:
I see the Brahms vs Wagner camps are still live and well. I am personally in the Brahms camp although of the three composers you mention I must say I enjoy Bruckner very much, but Wagner and Mahler are not to my liking at all. I don't think , no, I know I would not survive sitting through a Wagner opera, oh! the pain. In all honesty I find Wagner very boring and Mahler dwells to much on death, of course that is only my opinon and again that's what makes music so wonderful , you can pick and choose what you like. Bigger is not always better.

[This message has been edited by King Stephen (edited 05-10-2004).]

And Bruckner, at least in compositional technique was close to Brahms than Wagner. He just sounds like Wagner for the orchestration.

[Peter]

Originally posted by spaceray:
I once thought I might be able to enjoy Wagners smaller music,but it turns out he didn't write any.About a month ago I watched some of "The Ring" on TV but the music was so awful (to my ears ) that I muted it and played a cd of Mozart Piano Sonatas.

There are plenty of smaller excerpts that I'm sure you'd enjoy. The Siegfried idyll, liebestod from Tristan and Isolde, the overtures to The Meistersingers and Tannhauser, the preludes to Tristan, Lohengrin (Acts 1 and 3) and Parsifal. These compilations are generally available in most cd stores.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by King Stephen:
I see the Brahms vs Wagner camps are still live and well. I am personally in the Brahms camp although of the three composers you mention I must say I enjoy Bruckner very much, but Wagner and Mahler are not to my liking at all.

I think it perfectly possible to appreciate both! The main rivalries in the 19th century were the Brahms-Liszt camp. Wagner was admired from a distance (but not loved) by many Brahms enthusiasts, including Brahms himself - his scorn was reserved for Liszt and Bruckner. I think today we can rise above such pettiness and appreciate that music isn't a game; there shouldn't be rivalry, but harmony!

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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think it perfectly possible to appreciate both! The main rivalries in the 19th century were the Brahms-Liszt camp. Wagner was admired from a distance (but not loved) by many Brahms enthusiasts, including Brahms himself - his scorn was reserved for Liszt and Bruckner. I think today we can rise above such pettiness and appreciate that music isn't a game; there shouldn't be rivalry, but harmony!

I think we can thank the likes of Hanslick for the rivalries. It was more of a media thing in my mind--or a media generated thing.