Beethoven and Brahms

[King Stephen]

I get a bit agitated when I hear or read anything comparing Beethoven and Brahms. To me it's like comparing apples and oranges. But for the fact the Brahms believed in the "Old" school of compostion, what really do they have in common. Brahms had a tendency to be reserved in his works, maybe we can exclude the B-flat piano concerto, where as we know LvB broke down many barriers. I had a music teacher say to me that "Brahms was dull and boring". Oh, How I wanted to throttle that person. The teacher went on to say that Brahms motives were made up of just 3 and 4 notes. Bravo, to stupidity, for didn't LvB use very short motives also? I am from the school that believes that Johannes Brahms was one of the greatest composers of the 2nd half of the 19th century. Athough he felt dogged by Beethoven's music it did not stop him from following Beethoven in a structural sense. I think that Wagner's statement that after LvB the symphony, as know then, was dead. Listen to the 4 symphoies of Brahms. What a revelation these works are. But don't stop there, listen to his chamber music, choral works, solo piano works. If after this world wind experience the listner finds Brahms music not to their liking then all I can say is it is their loss. Finally, Brahms did not like the comparison of himself to Beethoven.
And yes, I like the term Bach, Beethoven and Brahms.

[Peter]

I agree with you, he was a great composer - at the moment I am working on his first sonata with its homage to Beethoven's Hammerklavier, a remarkable feat for a 20 year old! As you say Brahms hated the comparisons to Beethoven and remarked that music on such a level would not be written again - quite right and for all my admiration for other later composers, none have equalled Beethoven's achievements.

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'Man know thyself'

[ruudp]

Originally posted by King Stephen:
I get a bit agitated when I hear or read anything comparing Beethoven and Brahms. To me it's like comparing apples and oranges. But for the fact the Brahms believed in the "Old" school of compostion, what really do they have in common. Brahms had a tendency to be reserved in his works, maybe we can exclude the B-flat piano concerto, where as we know LvB broke down many barriers. I had a music teacher say to me that "Brahms was dull and boring". Oh, How I wanted to throttle that person. The teacher went on to say that Brahms motives were made up of just 3 and 4 notes. Bravo, to stupidity, for didn't LvB use very short motives also? I am from the school that believes that Johannes Brahms was one of the greatest composers of the 2nd half of the 19th century. Athough he felt dogged by Beethoven's music it did not stop him from following Beethoven in a structural sense. I think that Wagner's statement that after LvB the symphony, as know then, was dead. Listen to the 4 symphoies of Brahms. What a revelation these works are. But don't stop there, listen to his chamber music, choral works, solo piano works. If after this world wind experience the listner finds Brahms music not to their liking then all I can say is it is their loss. Finally, Brahms did not like the comparison of himself to Beethoven.
And yes, I like the term Bach, Beethoven and Brahms.

King,
Oddly enough I don't know a lot about brahms nor his works...Apart from his hungaric dances I haven't heard any work from him yet..What would you recommend me??

regards ruud.


P.s my mother does have An deutsches Requiem on cd but I haven't heard it yet I most confess.....

[Joy]

I agree. I enjoy Brahms very much also. I love his symphonies and Hungarian dances. Very enjoyable indeed. Although I must also confess Beethoven is still the greatest to these ears anyway!

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[urtextmeister]

Ruud,

What a journey you have ahead of you!
Brahms is an ocean of greatness.
The four symphonies are magnificent and should be required listening for anyone aspiring to be a human being. There is chamber music galore. Trios, quartets, quintets...

King S.,
I agree about Beethoven and Brahms being very different. Yes, there is greatness and nobility about both of them, but Brahms is like the uncle who would hug you right away and Beethoven is the uncle who would give you a lecture first.

My teacher once overheard Virgil Thompson say that Brahms and Rachmaninoff both came out of the same trash basket.

There is an emotional immediacy and unabashedness about Brahms that might turn some people off. Maybe that is what that is all about. Maybe it verges on the sentimental at times. Emotionally, I find Brahms is somewhat akin to Dvorak. They are both earthy and almost naive in their emotional frankness.

Peter,

Congrats on tackling one of those early sonatas. There are two that were written before the great f minor sonata, am I right? I had a whack at the sonata in f once, but I was much too young to understand the breadth of emotions.

I am planning to write my first big piano sonata this summmer. I have written a couple smaller scale ones, but, now that I am past forty, I feel it is time for the "Grand Sonata per Pianoforte" or something like that. Any suggestions?

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:
I agree with you, he was a great composer - at the moment I am working on his first sonata with its homage to Beethoven's Hammerklavier, a remarkable feat for a 20 year old! As you say Brahms hated the comparisons to Beethoven and remarked that music on such a level would not be written again - quite right and for all my admiration for other later composers, none have equalled Beethoven's achievements.

I particularly enjoy the contrapuntal complexities in his piano music. However, because of that I don't often try playing the music; it tends to be simply too hard.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by ruudp:
King,
Oddly enough I don't know a lot about brahms nor his works...Apart from his hungaric dances I haven't heard any work from him yet..What would you recommend me??

regards ruud.


P.s my mother does have An deutsches Requiem on cd but I haven't heard it yet I most confess.....

Listen to the Requiem! Some consider it one of his best works.

[Pastorali]

Originally posted by Joy:
I agree. I enjoy Brahms very much also. I love his symphonies and Hungarian dances. Very enjoyable indeed. Although I must also confess Beethoven is still the greatest to these ears anyway!

I agree too. And like to add the two Piano Concertos. Specially the second Concerto is a most lyric and beautiful work!

[Gurn Blanston]

Crikey, where does one begin with Brahms' music? There is a lot of it, and all good. The 2 Piano Concertos, Violin Concerto and Violin & Cello Concerto are among the best Romantic Era concertos. And the four symphonies are all great, particularly #4.
My own interest is the chamber music, so I will list it in order of my preference, which is subject to change at any given listening:

Op 34 Piano Quintet (one of the 3 greatest of the genre)
All 3 Piano Quartets (but I love #1 in particular)
All 3 String Quartets (#1, in c minor, is darkly beautiful)
The 2 String Quintets
The 2 String Sextets
The Piano Trios

And then the sonatas and piano music, 3 piano sonatas
3 Violin Sonatas and a couple of movements
2 Cello Sonatas
The Intermezzos for piano Op 117
The Fantasias Op 116
The 3 Op of Pianostucke - 76, 118 & 119
Variationa & Fugue on a Theme by Handel Op 24
Variations on a Theme of Paganini Op 35

Well, that will get you started on Brahms, at least. Oh, and not to forget, the Overtures (Academic Festival is very nice) and the Hungarian Dances (particularly try the original version in piano 4-hands instead of the orcehstral version)...
Oh, King, I like Brahms too. Nice thread!


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Gurn Blanston]

Oh, and I forgot, the Trio for Horn & Strings and the Trio for Clarinet & Strings, and the Clarinet Quintet, and the 2 sonatas for Clarinet & Piano (also scored for Viola (bratsche) and Piano)...


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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[spaceray]

Brahms wrote three hundred or so works for voices ,his Lieder are exquisite,try the "Four Serious Songs" as well.

[Peter]

Also not mentioned yet, Variations on a theme of Haydn (St.Anthony Chorale), the Violin concerto, the exhuberant Academic festival overture the double concerto, the Alto rhapsody, Song of destiny, Op.17 songs, Ave maria for womens chorus and the 4 Ballades for piano.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:

Peter,

Congrats on tackling one of those early sonatas. There are two that were written before the great f minor sonata, am I right? I had a whack at the sonata in f once, but I was much too young to understand the breadth of emotions.

I am planning to write my first big piano sonata this summmer. I have written a couple smaller scale ones, but, now that I am past forty, I feel it is time for the "Grand Sonata per Pianoforte" or something like that. Any suggestions?

Yes there are two before the f minor - I think the C major is also a great work. As for your own attempt at a masterpiece I'm not sure what advice you're looking for!

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'Man know thyself'

[urtextmeister]

Originally posted by Peter:
Yes there are two before the f minor - I think the C major is also a great work. As for your own attempt at a masterpiece I'm not sure what advice you're looking for!

Let me put it this way: say you're doing a recital and you want to put a contemporary sonata on the program. What qualities would you look for in such a piece?

By the way, I think we have covered Brahms suggestions. The fact that so many pieces have been suggested is an indication of how consist this great composer was.

[ruudp]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
Ruud,

What a journey you have ahead of you!
Brahms is an ocean of greatness.
The four symphonies are magnificent and should be required listening for anyone aspiring to be a human being. There is chamber music galore. Trios, quartets, quintets...

King S.,
I agree about Beethoven and Brahms being very different. Yes, there is greatness and nobility about both of them, but Brahms is like the uncle who would hug you right away and Beethoven is the uncle who would give you a lecture first.

My teacher once overheard Virgil Thompson say that Brahms and Rachmaninoff both came out of the same trash basket.

There is an emotional immediacy and unabashedness about Brahms that might turn some people off. Maybe that is what that is all about. Maybe it verges on the sentimental at times. Emotionally, I find Brahms is somewhat akin to Dvorak. They are both earthy and almost naive in their emotional frankness.

Peter,

Congrats on tackling one of those early sonatas. There are two that were written before the great f minor sonata, am I right? I had a whack at the sonata in f once, but I was much too young to understand the breadth of emotions.

I am planning to write my first big piano sonata this summmer. I have written a couple smaller scale ones, but, now that I am past forty, I feel it is time for the "Grand Sonata per Pianoforte" or something like that. Any suggestions?

thnx for the reply Urtextmeister and others.. ..The only hint I can give you regarding composing * I am a rooky though* is to record yourself playing and thus contain the moment supreme and then try to write down what you've played...
*I love minor keys because of their expressive capacities, I'd modulate to minor AND mayor in the same movement and would make 3 movements...minor/mayor/minor or vice versa.*
I've played before a schoolaudience last year a fantasie in c minor...The response was great but alas I am NOT able to write it donwn yet so as a substitute I've recorded it.I also work with the computer a lot * finale 2002*
I hope these hints were usefull...

Regards,
Ruud