The German Dances

[Chris]

The German Dances, such as WoO 8 (which I think Beethoven arranged for the piano from his original orchestral versions) are played one right after another, in a single track, in all recordings I have seen. (And it's the same with the other dances).

Why is this done? I see nothing in the sheet music that indicates this is to be done. In WoO 83, for example, it makes sense because of the way the barlines are (not to mention the key of each one).

But as for the others, I have no clue. Does anyone know about this?

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 05-13-2004).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Chris,
While this is mainly true, it is not invariable. In the CBE, WoO 9 and WoO 15 (Minuets and Landler respectively) are in fact separated out, while all of the other versions I have are as you say. One thing I note here is that the two versions above are string trio (2 Violins & Bass) versions while the others are all solo piano versions. I have WoO 15 in both, and the piano is strung together while the strings are not. This is reinforced by the fact that my piano versions are from the CBE also, so one would expect consistency unless there was a reason otherwise. In my Mozart box of Dances, there is a mix of the two types, but most of them are separated out. Mozart's are nearly all orchestral. Wish I could resolve it, but anyway that may help a bit.


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Chris]

Yes, I looked at how the CBE did things. I have also noticed that orchestral versions almost always seem to be seperate.

In my opinion, they should be seperate no matter what arrangement we are talking about. There is really no logical reason to combine them. But it happens so often that I'm interested to know the reason.

Thanks for the input.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chris:
The German Dances, such as WoO 8 (which I think Beethoven arranged for the piano from his original orchestral versions) are played one right after another, in a single track, in all recordings I have seen. (And it's the same with the other dances).

Why is this done? I see nothing in the sheet music that indicates this is to be done. In WoO 83, for example, it makes sense because of the way the barlines are (not to mention the key of each one).

But as for the others, I have no clue. Does anyone know about this?

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 05-13-2004).]

Well in 2 the 3 sets of German dances (WoO8 and WoO13) Beethoven provides an extended coda to the finale as he does with the Landler, but of course the Landler are all in one key and there is little doubt that they at least were intended to be played without a break. As to arrangements, it was common practice to provide three versions; orchestral, 2 violins and bass, piano - none can be regarded as the 'original'.

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'Man know thyself'

[Chris]

Interesting, Peter.

I thought the orchestral versions were the originals and the others were derived from them. In the case of WoO 8, I didn't even think it was 100% certain that the piano version was arranged by Beethoven.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
Interesting, Peter.

I thought the orchestral versions were the originals and the others were derived from them. In the case of WoO 8, I didn't even think it was 100% certain that the piano version was arranged by Beethoven.

I was under the same impression. I think I have the piano version of WoO8 on CD, I do not recall thinking it was not B's work but I'll have another listen tonight.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Chris:
...In my opinion, they should be seperate no matter what arrangement we are talking about....

Chris,
Couldn't agree more. This is no excuse for such behavior,but I wonder if they feel that the pieces are so short (in WoO 15, the 6 together are just 3:22) that bunching them up is the way to go. Of course, the non-piano versions being separate despite their length sort of argues against that.
Hess says the piano arrangements are by B. So that makes me curious. I doubt you could tell simply by listening to them, it is B's music, and the arranger did nothing but rescore. It's gonna sound like B in any case.



------------------
Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chris:
Interesting, Peter.

I thought the orchestral versions were the originals and the others were derived from them. In the case of WoO 8, I didn't even think it was 100% certain that the piano version was arranged by Beethoven.

The orchestral version was intended for the small Redoutensaal, but the dances were also intended to be performed at lesser occasions as had been the habit since Haydn wrote for the first of these annual balls in 1792. Therefore a piano version and a version for 2 violins and bass were provided, usually only the piano version was published and frequently other versions are missing.
With WoO7 and WoO8 the piano versions were published by Artaria in 1795 and the orchestral versions posthumously.

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-13-2004).]

[Chris]

Originally posted by Rod:
I do not recall thinking it was not B's work but I'll have another listen tonight.

For what it's worth, the piano arrangements of the dances seem very much like Beethoven's piano writing to me. Although with such reletively simple pieces, it's hard to be too certain about that just from looking and listening.

Peter's point about the Codas is a good one. But the orchesral versions seem to indicate that that doesn't mean they MUST all run together.

Perhaps they should be played together as in the sense of seperate movements? With a brief pause in between each one? The codas would still make sense this way, and the different keys wouldn't make things seem quite as strange.