sonata op.111

[Rod]

Originally posted by Pastorali:
Ah, great! I'm 100% prepared to wait! To wait is half the business of a collector...

I waited over 10 years!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[v russo]

Originally posted by ruudp:
Every time one speaks of his favourite sonata of beethoven one mentions his most well-known works..?
I personally am fond of his sonata in c minor OP.111 I find the first part just GREAT the fugal theme which keeps on recurring the exhillarating start of the allegro, the desparation which this piece breaths appeals to me hugely..and the second movement is a perfect contrast an almost meditive peace and quiet radiates from the original theme, and doesen't any of you hear ragtime in the 2nd or 3d *i'm not sure* variation.

I'm looking forward to hear what your opinion is on this monumental sonata

The Op.111 is an amazing work and one of my favorites. The first movement: that neo-Bach approach with amazing results. The second movement: that heavenly set of variations; YES- and including those syncopations that lend themselves to early Jazz. Who would have thought Beethoven to be the originator of Jazz as well!!



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v russo

[This message has been edited by v russo (edited 05-02-2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by v russo:
The Op.111 is an amazing work and one of my favorites. The first movement: that neo-Bach approach with amazing results. The second movement: that heavenly set of variations; YES- and including those syncopations that lend themselves to early Jazz. Who would have thought Beethoven to be the originator of Jazz as well!!

Well I suggest Bach would never have allowed himself the 'liberties' taken by Beethoven and in this context I suggest Bach is only a latent influence in the late Beethoven style. Put it this way I've heard nothing in Bach's keyboard output that resembles this piece.

As for the 'jazz' element that is often discussed I say this - if you play any piece of classical music on an jazz piano (the Steinway) in a jazz-like manner then you will more than likely hear something that sounds like jazz! You do not get such an impression on the fortepiano I can say for sure.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[v russo]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well I suggest Bach would never have allowed himself the 'liberties' taken by Beethoven and in this context I suggest Bach is only a latent influence in the late Beethoven style. Put it this way I've heard nothing in Bach's keyboard output that resembles this piece.

As for the 'jazz' element that is often discussed I say this - if you play any piece of classical music on an jazz piano (the Steinway) in a jazz-like manner then you will more than likely hear something that sounds like jazz! You do not get such an impression on the fortepiano I can say for sure.

If you can not hear J.S. Bach in this opening movement, you must be deaf. And if you do not feel the syncopational swing in the variation mentioned, then you are not alive my good man!

maybe if one were of a nobel birth, one could hear such things...

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v russo

[This message has been edited by v russo (edited 05-03-2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by v russo:
If you can not hear J.S. Bach in this opening movement, you must be deaf. And if you do not feel the syncopational swing in the variation mentioned, then you are not alive my good man!

maybe if one were of a nobel birth, one could hear such things...

You can talk about 'syncopational swing' as long as you like, it is the overall musical impression that is the issue. I've listened to more Jazz than I care to remember thanks to my brother's lack of taste and if this variation is Jazz then my middle name is 'van'.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-04-2004).]

[v russo]

Originally posted by Rod:
You can talk about 'syncopational swing' as long as you like, it is the overall musical impression that is the issue. I've listened to more Jazz than I care to remember thanks to my brother's lack of taste and if this variation is Jazz then my middle name is 'van'.

Jazz is a great and unique art form, and If I may say constructively, you sound a bit snobbish to me sir.



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v russo

[Pastorali]

Oh friends, not these tones!
Let us raise our voices in more
pleasing and more joyful sounds!

I must confess, I think too, that sounds amazingly jazzy...

[Gurn Blanston]

P,
But of course that is how wars start: first, one says "jazz" to mean it sounds jazzy to him, truly that is all he could mean since it is not jazz as such, while the other, ever the literalist, hears "jazz" and says, quite rightly "that's not jazz" and so it goes. Soon there will be four or five years of atrocities and taunting, then suddenly they will sit around a large round table and make up all differences, and after the war crimes trial things will return to normal. You and I, as the most urbane and civilized of men, would never get on to that level, but then, B would not have needed to write "Nicht diese Tone" if they were all like us!

PS - Sounds pretty "jazzy" to me too, but of course, not jazz
PPS - Just feeling sort of apocalyptic tonight. Time for bed, I think

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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[This message has been edited by Gurn Blanston (edited 05-05-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Gurn Blanston (edited 05-05-2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Pastorali:
Oh friends, not these tones!
Let us raise our voices in more
pleasing and more joyful sounds!

I must confess, I think too, that sounds amazingly jazzy...

Frankly, until I came to discuss Beethoven on the net it had never occured to me once that this variation sounded even remotely 'jazzy', even on the modern piano versions I possessed at the time (by Buchbinder and Roberts). It makes me wonder what exactly you guys have been listening to!? But I have two versions played on Grafs that I can assure you sound even more remote still from this Jazz connection. Some have referred to this piece as 'honky tonk' music!

Alas (or fortunately) I will never be of noble birth but to date I have yet to be humbled by any visitor to this page.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-05-2004).]

[Pastorali]

Originally posted by Rod:
Alas (or fortunately) I will never be of noble birth but to date I have yet to be humbled by any visitor to this page.

Wrong!!
As I am of humble birth, I can assure you, I didn't! Nevertheless I have my meaning.
Unfortunately, I haven't had the pleasure to hear an 'authentic' version of it, no doubt that sounds slightly otherwise...



[This message has been edited by Pastorali (edited 05-05-2004).]

[v russo]

Alas (or fortunately) I will never be of noble birth but to date I have yet to be humbled by any visitor to this page.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Well, thanks for not proving my point sir Rod.

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v russo

[This message has been edited by v russo (edited 05-05-2004).]

[v russo]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
P,
But of course that is how wars start: first, one says "jazz" to mean it sounds jazzy to him, truly that is all he could mean since it is not jazz as such, while the other, ever the literalist, hears "jazz" and says, quite rightly "that's not jazz" and so it goes. Soon there will be four or five years of atrocities and taunting, then suddenly they will sit around a large round table and make up all differences, and after the war crimes trial things will return to normal. You and I, as the most urbane and civilized of men, would never get on to that level, but then, B would not have needed to write "Nicht diese Tone" if they were all like us!

PS - Sounds pretty "jazzy" to me too, but of course, not jazz
PPS - Just feeling sort of apocalyptic tonight. Time for bed, I think

Hey-Hey Mr. Gurn, lets leave modern wartime politics out of this!





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v russo

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by v russo:
Hey-Hey Mr. Gurn, lets leave modern wartime politics out of this!

v.
It just all seems the same to me, just a question of scale! You certainly can't argue about the taunting and atrocities, we've both seen too much for that.



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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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