ode to joy references

[urtextmeister]

A while back, King Stephen brought up the topic of borrowing the ode to joy theme. Two examples were Sibelius sym. 5 and Schubert 9. I had never noticed such things in the Schubert and was unfamiliar with the Sibelius.

Now, having listened to those pieces a couple times, I have made up my mind:

You're right!

While listening to the Sibelius it hit me like a ton of bricks. Of course, I was listening for it, but the reference seemed indisputable.

The last movement of the Schubert has many moments that seem somewhat inspired by the theme, but there is also a direct, naked statement of it about halfway through.

I believe that both of these composers did knowingly and with good intentions aforethought place this theme in their symphonies.

Now we are back to the original question: are there other examples of this "ode to joyification" of symphonies?...

[King Stephen]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
A while back, King Stephen brought up the topic of borrowing the ode to joy theme. Two examples were Sibelius sym. 5 and Schubert 9. I had never noticed such things in the Schubert and was unfamiliar with the Sibelius.

Now, having listened to those pieces a couple times, I have made up my mind:

You're right!

While listening to the Sibelius it hit me like a ton of bricks. Of course, I was listening for it, but the reference seemed indisputable.

The last movement of the Schubert has many moments that seem somewhat inspired by the theme, but there is also a direct, naked statement of it about halfway through.

I believe that both of these composers did knowingly and with good intentions aforethought place this theme in their symphonies.

Now we are back to the original question: are there other examples of this "ode to joyification" of symphonies?...

Now when you listen to the Schubert or Sibelius you will always hear LvB. I do believe you are right when you say they were both paying tribute to Beethoven.

[AndrewMyers]

Perhaps most famously, the finale of Brahms' first symphony in a very Beethovenian C minor. As he himself said when the similarity was pointed out to him, 'any ass can see that!'

My first post!

[v russo]

Originally posted by AndrewMyers:
Perhaps most famously, the finale of Brahms' first symphony in a very Beethovenian C minor. As he himself said when the similarity was pointed out to him, 'any ass can see that!'

My first post!

very true, there are "ode to joy" references in this symphony. What about B's own reference to it (...or before it) in a work like the 4th piano concerto?



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v russo

[Tony John Hearne]

Originally posted by AndrewMyers:
Perhaps most famously, the finale of Brahms' first symphony in a very Beethovenian C minor. As he himself said when the similarity was pointed out to him, 'any ass can see that!'

My first post!

Welcome to the discussions Andrew And thanks for mentioning the final movement of Brahms 1 which has many moments of supremacy.



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Love from London

[Peter]

Personally I think too much is being read into these 'homages' and I doubt the conscious intention of the composers mentioned - they are not in the line of direct quotes such as you find in Shostakovich. Since composers from Bach to Mahler used the same tonal language built on the major/minor scales and arpeggios it is not surprising that similarities crop up all the time. The opening of Brahms's violin concerto is solely an arpeggio of D major as Beethoven's Eroica is of Eb major.

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'Man know thyself'

[King Stephen]

Originally posted by Peter:
Personally I think too much is being read into these 'homages' and I doubt the conscious intention of the composers mentioned - they are not in the line of direct quotes such as you find in Shostakovich. Since composers from Bach to Mahler used the same tonal language built on the major/minor scales and arpeggios it is not surprising that similarities crop up all the time. The opening of Brahms's violin concerto is solely an arpeggio of D major as Beethoven's Eroica is of Eb major.

Peter, Sibelius and Schubert have direct quotes in reference to LvB's 9th. Brahms, I will agree, does not directly quote Beethoven. And I do think in both cases the the composers, Sibelius and schubert were well aware of what they did. I believe they were paying tribute to the master.
Steve

[This message has been edited by King Stephen (edited 05-03-2004).]

[AndrewMyers]

Many thanks for your welcoming comments!

I think the Brahms 1 finale is without doubt a conscious reference, not just coincidence or unconscious plagiarism. It's actually quite a creative re-working of the theme.

As for earlier instances of the theme in B's own work, isn't the version in the 4th piano concerto, as mentioned by v russo, just absolutely magical? Not a lesser or failed attempt by any means! And has anyone heard the Fantasia for piano, orchestra and chorus, op 80 or thereabouts? An endearingly stodgy version of the theme, revealing just how B's hard work paid off in the 9th! Definitely worth a listen though, if only for the piano opening.