Authentic page mp3s - Symphony no.2 Op.36

[Chaszz]

If the metronome wasn't invented until the mid-teens, as Gurn says, and Beethoven didn't go back and mark his earlier works, as you say, then how did the Second Symphony get its metronome indications, as Rod says?
And this is an important point, because weren't the majority of his works written in his middle period, that is, before the metronmome was in use?



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 04-21-2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
If the metronome wasn't invented until the mid-teens, as Gurn says, and Beethoven didn't go back and mark his earlier works, as you say, then how did the Second Symphony get its metronome indications, as Rod says?
And this is an important point, because weren't the majority of his works written in his middle period, that is, before the metronmome was in use?

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 04-21-2004).]

Well he didn't mark all his earlier works such as the sonatas (only Op.106 has metronome indications), but he did issue a pamphlet in 1817 with indications for all the symphonies and quartets. This site might explain some of the ambiguity http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cac...hl=en&ie=UTF-8

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'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well he didn't mark all his earlier works such as the sonatas (only Op.106 has metronome indications), but he did issue a pamphlet in 1817 with indications for all the symphonies and quartets. This site might explain some of the ambiguity http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cache:r9EAP6 E0YnIJ:www.hansgal.com/writings/tempo.pdf+beethoven+maelzel+metronome&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Quite interesting. But the confusion evinced there is such that I still feel justified in questioning the very rapid tempos of many 'authentic' performances, inclduing this Second Symphony.

The other issue I mentioned was the skill of the performers. Wagner wrote of older second chair musicians who could not play some of his music, and this is more recent by 40 years than Beethoven. Such a lack of skill in a paid professional orchestra is unheard of today. The question is how these earlier players could have played these breakneck tempos that the HIP people would have us to believe were standard.

I have seen this question asked here and on several other classical music boards, but I have never seen anyone even attempt to answer it.

[Rod]

[quote]Originally posted by Chaszz:
[b]

Originally posted by Peter:
Such a lack of skill in a paid professional orchestra is unheard of today. The question is how these earlier players could have played these breakneck tempos that the HIP people would have us to believe were standard.

I have seen this question asked here and on several other classical music boards, but I have never seen anyone even attempt to answer it.

I have a contemporary report regarding the use of 'whirlwind' tempos by Beethoven. Read the account at the mp3 page about the final movement too! This is not music for old maids. Beethoven did not write amateur symphonies and rehersal time was often short or non existant by todays standards and remember the music was brand new then.

Personally I do not even regard the performance as 'breakneck', for me it is what I would normally expect to hear. The written tempo indications, both in Italian and by metronome are clear - no-one liked quick allegros as much as Beethoven. So perhaps the reason you have had no answer is because there is really no question!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 04-22-2004).]

[Gurn Blanston]

I agree with Rod on this one, tempo's perfect for my taste, so even if it is wrong, I don't care, it is what I like!


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Sorrano]

Tempo is so often dependant on the acoustics of where the work is recorded. But after listening to this rendition of the 2nd Symphony, 1st movement the thing that appeals most to me is the energy level behind the performance. I have heard slow interpretations of other works, but because their is such electric energy behind the music I enjoyed it for the slower tempi and energy. But lethargy is one thing I cannot abide in a performance. Fast tempi can be lethargic and methodic, losing the purpose of the piece in interpretation. Thus, I like the Norrington versions because of the energy (Hogwood has impressed me very much in this way, too).

[mrfixit]

Been looking forward to this one. Been listening more to Beethovens early works recently.

[Rutradelusasa]

I like Hogwood and Gardiner (and when he does it, Harnoncourt as well) because they have great energy and can do fast tempi without it becoming "trampled", or (most likely to happen with the violins) filled with errors. I really like Harnoncourt as well but I became disappointed with him because of his Fidelio, this has to be the slowest (slower than Furtwängler and Klemperer, who could be quite slow sometimes) recording ever, therefore it lacks some energy, some impetus needed for Beethoven.
Its nice to know that Norrington also follows Hogwood's and Gardiner's trend, and I listened to this CD (almost bought it, those dammed record companies can't complain about mp3s, this one almost made me buy the CD) and I indeed like the 2nd a lot, the 8th is fine too (very much like Hogwood and Gardiner) and so is the Coriolan, but isn't the Egmont a bit too fast?
I mean, the introduction should be more noble, more intensive, and I think Norrington has managed to loose that a bit.

Also (sorry for the long reply) how do you guys feel about Gardiner's set (with it's splendid 4th and 8th, the best ever) and specially his 9th, with the fastest Alla Marcia section on the Finale?

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
I like Hogwood and Gardiner (and when he does it, Harnoncourt as well) because they have great energy and can do fast tempi without it becoming "trampled", or (most likely to happen with the violins) filled with errors. I really like Harnoncourt as well but I became disappointed with him because of his Fidelio, this has to be the slowest (slower than Furtwängler and Klemperer, who could be quite slow sometimes) recording ever, therefore it lacks some energy, some impetus needed for Beethoven.
Its nice to know that Norrington also follows Hogwood's and Gardiner's trend, and I listened to this CD (almost bought it, those dammed record companies can't complain about mp3s, this one almost made me buy the CD) and I indeed like the 2nd a lot, the 8th is fine too (very much like Hogwood and Gardiner) and so is the Coriolan, but isn't the Egmont a bit too fast?
I mean, the introduction should be more noble, more intensive, and I think Norrington has managed to loose that a bit.

Also (sorry for the long reply) how do you guys feel about Gardiner's set (with it's splendid 4th and 8th, the best ever) and specially his 9th, with the fastest Alla Marcia section on the Finale?

Sorrano,
For the Gardiner set, I have only the 9th, I love it (along with every other of his CD's that I own, he and his little band are really quite excellent). I also have all of the AAM/Hogwood set and I like the brisk pace that is set there too. No lack of enunciation or apparent mistakes due to speed either. As for Harnoncourt, I have not heard his B set because I bought 2 vastly different CD's of his early on, Schumann Violin & Piano Concertos and Mozart Overtures, both of which were travesties to the music, and I simply cannot bring myself to invest any more in his work, even though I have heard good things about these particular ones. BTW, the Mozart abomination was a tempo issue too, he takes the Overture to Figaro so slowly that it almost unrecognizable! And this is the archtype of music that can stand ANY tempo, as long as it is fast. I simply don't understand, but then, there is so much that I don't...


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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[This message has been edited by Gurn Blanston (edited 04-26-2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
...but isn't the Egmont a bit too fast?
I mean, the introduction should be more noble, more intensive, and I think Norrington has managed to loose that a bit.

Also (sorry for the long reply) how do you guys feel about Gardiner's set (with it's splendid 4th and 8th, the best ever) and specially his 9th, with the fastest Alla Marcia section on the Finale?

Yes Norrington makes a bit of a mess of the opening to the Egmont, the effect is underwealming.

I have Gardiner's set, or rather had, it resides in Paris now. Some good moments here and there, but overall I was dissappointed with the set. I expected more from him. But I like a fast marcia in the 9th finale as is done in the Gardiner set - there has been debate about B's metronome mark for it, which is incredibly slow, and it is assumed there was an error made by his nephew Karl, I think, who was writing down B's figures for the piece. But other 'authentic' recordings take the mark at face value - Norrington's is very slow indeed and the result is less effective and in any case does not fit well with the words from the Ode for this section.

Back to the general matter of authentic interpretation I feel it in not only the tempo that effects the quality of delivery, but also the nature of the instruments, in this case especially the brass and the drums. The relatively small string section also allow a better balance to the whole sound, with gut strings applying a more restrained use of vibrato allowing a greater sence of transparency


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 04-27-2004).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Sorrano,
For the Gardiner set, I have only the 9th, I love it (along with every other of his CD's that I own, he and his little band are really quite excellent). I also have all of the AAM/Hogwood set and I like the brisk pace that is set there too. No lack of enunciation or apparent mistakes due to speed either. As for Harnoncourt, I have not heard his B set because I bought 2 vastly different CD's of his early on, Schumann Violin & Piano Concertos and Mozart Overtures, both of which were travesties to the music, and I simply cannot bring myself to invest any more in his work, even though I have heard good things about these particular ones. BTW, the Mozart abomination was a tempo issue too, he takes the Overture to Figaro so slowly that it almost unrecognizable! And this is the archtype of music that can stand ANY tempo, as long as it is fast. I simply don't understand, but then, there is so much that I don't...

I have at least the 1st and 3rd by Hogwood (all the Hogwood recordings are on LP and I don't remember what all I have anymore as I don't listen to LP's much) and I recall vividly listening to the 3rd and liking it very much. It was clean and crisp with a nice, brisk tempo and I felt as though I were listening to it for the first time. The only other recording of the 3rd that gave me that sensation was the Toscanini (but with all the cleaning that has been done to that recording it is still a little less than clear). I am very curious about the 9th and may have to purchase it soon.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
I have at least the 1st and 3rd by Hogwood (all the Hogwood recordings are on LP and I don't remember what all I have anymore as I don't listen to LP's much) and I recall vividly listening to the 3rd and liking it very much. It was clean and crisp with a nice, brisk tempo and I felt as though I were listening to it for the first time. The only other recording of the 3rd that gave me that sensation was the Toscanini (but with all the cleaning that has been done to that recording it is still a little less than clear). I am very curious about the 9th and may have to purchase it soon.

Sorrano,
Well, this is still available, and the price is really good.
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/...58&name_role=1

I can vouch for the vendor, I have bought a ton from them and they have been great. Of all the B symphony sets I have seen on Ebay, I have never seen this one, more's the pity.



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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Sorrano,
Well, this is still available, and the price is really good.
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=15158&name_r ole1=3&bcorder=3&name_id=858&name_role=1

I can vouch for the vendor, I have bought a ton from them and they have been great. Of all the B symphony sets I have seen on Ebay, I have never seen this one, more's the pity.

Nice! I will check into this! Thanks!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

Nice! I will check into this! Thanks!

You can easily find Hogwood's set here in London, I bought it a few weeks ago at HMV in the bargain basket! This set is very interesting but still needs an extra kick of dynamism for my taste.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 04-28-2004).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
You can easily find Hogwood's set here in London, I bought it a few weeks ago at HMV in the bargain basket! This set is very interesting but still needs an extra kick of dynamism for my taste.

If I were but of London...or in London.... but, alas, I am not. I only recall listening to the 1st and 3rd symphonies and did like them more than other versions I had heard to that time. But since then I've heard more.