Authentic page mp3s - Symphony no.2 Op.36

[Peter]

Now available to members at www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/authentic.html

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'Man know thyself'

[Andrea]

I love this symphony. It's great knowing that Beethoven composed this symphony when he was living here in Heiligenstadt, just up the street from my flat.

Peter, you posted that the Symphony #2 was first performed at the Augarten. It was actually first performed on Tuesday 5 April, 1803 at a concert given by Beethoven in the Theater-an-der-Wien and the programme included "The Mount of Olives", the Sym.#1 and the Piano Concerto in C minor.

[Chaszz]

I get the feeling I often get from "authentic" performances, which is that it's too fast. Apart from that, it's a lively, well-articulated performance with some good ideas from the conductor. However, the extreme speed is hard for me to get used to, and gives the impression of a runaway train. Or of a conductor who has an engagement in Oslo that evening and is in a hurry to get out of London. "Ladies and Gentlemen, very well; now if we could just take another three-eigths of a second off bars 102-108." Spoken at chipmunk speed of course.

The extreme speed had the paardoxical effect of making the movement seem LONGER for me; becuase my mind could not get absorbed properly in the development it became somewhat repetititous and seemed longer. There is of course also the issue of how players in the early 1800s, who were very likely not as facile as ours today where every chair has a hundred applicants, could have managed these breakneck speeds. I have seen this question asked a good many times on this board and on other music boards in relation to "authentic" style. But rarely has anyone attempted to answer it, and then no where near satisfactorily.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 04-20-2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I get the feeling I often get from "authentic" performances, which is that it's too fast. Apart from that, it's a lively, well-articulated performance with some good ideas from the conductor. However, the extreme speed is hard for me to get used to, and gives the impression of a runaway train. Or of a conductor who has an engagement in Oslo that evening and is in a hurry to get out of London. "Ladies and Gentlemen, very well; now if we could just take another three-eigths of a second off bars 102-108." Spoken at chipmunk speed of course.

The extreme speed had the paardoxical effect of making the movement seem LONGER for me; becuase my mind could not get absorbed properly in the development it became somewhat repetititous and seemed longer. There is of course also the issue of how players in the early 1800s, who were very likely not as facile as ours today where every chair has a hundred applicants, could have managed these breakneck speeds. I have seen this question asked a good many times on this board and on other music boards in relation to "authentic" style. But rarely has anyone attempted to answer it, and then no where near satisfactorily.

Well, apparently Norrington is observing Beethoven's metronome indications. For me the movement is paced about right. If anything the phrasing could be a little more dynamic here and there, probably resulting in an even quicker timing by the clock. The fact that you spend so much time listening to Romantic music, for which Moderato is a quick tempo, may be an influencing factor in your impression.

As a quasi-string player myself, just because something sounds 'breakneck' does not always mean that the effect was difficult to produce technically, but even if they did have difficulty observing B's indications, that does not mean that musicians today should be prevented from doing so, what you are saying is a rather perverse form of authentisity. Beethoven did not on the whole compose 'easy' music! In any case Beethoven asks for a 'con brio' allegro, not something lame like you so often get with Beethoven performances.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin




[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 04-20-2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Andrea:

Peter, you posted that the Symphony #2 was first performed at the Augarten. It was actually first performed on Tuesday 5 April, 1803 at a concert given by Beethoven in the Theater-an-der-Wien and the programme included "The Mount of Olives", the Sym.#1 and the Piano Concerto in C minor.

Yes you are quite right - the info came from the symphony page which I will amend.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Yes you are quite right - the info came from the symphony page which I will amend.

My fault. My excuse is that I put most of that info together on various occasions after I came home from the pub!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, apparently Norrington is observing Beethoven's metronome indications. For me the movement is paced about right. If anything the phrasing could be a little more dynamic here and there, probably resulting in an even quicker timing by the clock. The fact that you spend so much time listening to Romantic music, for which Moderato is a quick tempo, may be an influencing factor in your impression.

As a quasi-string player myself, just because something sounds 'breakneck' does not always mean that the effect was difficult to produce technically, but even if they did have difficulty observing B's indications, that does not mean that musicians today should be prevented from doing so, what you are saying is a rather perverse form of authentisity. Beethoven did not on the whole compose 'easy' music! In any case Beethoven asks for a 'con brio' allegro, not something lame like you so often get with Beethoven performances.

I also grew up in an era when Romantic interpretations were polluting the minds and ears of innocent youth. But how accurate are those metronome markings? Are they sure that metronomes beat today exactly as fast as they did in 1803? What are the controversies regarding Beethoven's metronome markings that I keep hearing about?



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 04-20-2004).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Chaszz,
I am not claiming any special knowledge about metronomes, but in this case I would point out that the metronome was not invented and distributed until the mid-teens, so the indications that B wrote for them was clearly ex post facto. The controversy that I have heard is nothing more than some "experts" claiming that as a deaf man B couldn't possibly be competent to write metronome indications, thus he got them all wrong. Right. I have noticed in reading about that period that B was about the most musically ignorant man who ever lived. Amazing how intelligent he got just in our era!


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
But how accurate are those metronome markings? Are they sure that metronomes beat today exactly as fast as they did in 1803? What are the controversies regarding Beethoven's metronome markings that I keep hearing about?

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 04-20-2004).]

Well a minute is a minute and 60 seconds 60 seconds, just as it was then! It would have been easy to measure accuracy against a watch.

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'Man know thyself'

[Gurn Blanston]

Peter,
Yeah, you're right, that was why I just didn't address that part, I couldn't imagine what he was getting at. That is the one aspect that has been almost consistent!!


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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Peter,
Yeah, you're right, that was why I just didn't address that part, I couldn't imagine what he was getting at. That is the one aspect that has been almost consistent!!

Now that you mention it, I can't imagine what I was getting at either. You see what too much Romantic music does to the brain.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 04-20-2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Now that you mention it, I can't imagine what I was getting at either. You see what too much Romantic music does to the brain.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 04-20-2004).]

Well I know what you were getting at and the controversy doesn't surround the metronome in general, but Beethoven's own metronome in particular which was considered to be faulty. These days, Beethoven's markings are generally considered accurate. Perhaps the problem is also down to the fact that Beethoven didn't intend the same tempo for a whole movement and would expect wider fluctuations than the rigid metronome would suggest.


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

The extreme speed had the paardoxical effect of making the movement seem LONGER for me; becuase my mind could not get absorbed properly in the development it became somewhat repetititous and seemed longer.

It occured to me that the reason why the movement played at a quicker tempo may seem longer than other versions you've heard at a slower tempo is because perhaps the other versions may have missed out the repeat! This practise was common in the Karajan era, and still goes on now to some degree.




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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:

Well I know what you were getting at and the controversy doesn't surround the metronome in general, but Beethoven's own metronome in particular which was considered to be faulty. These days, Beethoven's markings are generally considered accurate. Perhaps the problem is also down to the fact that Beethoven didn't intend the same tempo for a whole movement and would expect wider fluctuations than the rigid metronome would suggest.

There's also the issue that if the invention of the metronome more or less coincided with the end of Beethoven's middle 'heroic' period, in 1815 or thereabouts, that he would have been marking these scores retroactively, correct? And that is an awful lot of music to mark retroactively. Suppose he marked a good number of scores at one sitting, at a publisher's urging, and was a little off his temper that morning?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
There's also the issue that if the invention of the metronome more or less coincided with the end of Beethoven's middle 'heroic' period, in 1815 or thereabouts, that he would have been marking these scores retroactively, correct? And that is an awful lot of music to mark retroactively. Suppose he marked a good number of scores at one sitting, at a publisher's urging, and was a little off his temper that morning?

Well Beethoven didn't do that - he didn't provide metronome markings for the earlier works, and in any case he was far too much of a perfectionist regarding his works to simply rush off a few tempo markings without proper consideration.



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'Man know thyself'