Did Mozart abuse drugs?

[Steppenwolf]

Regarding the issue of infidelity, I just want to add that there is not, in my humble opinion, any persuasive or compelling evidence that Mozart was a womaniser. I say reaffirm this in light of the allegations that other posters have reported above.

I have no desire to depict him as a saint. It wouldn't bother me personally at all if I thought he truly was, but it really seems in truth that he wasn't. There is evidence, but no CREDIBLE evidence for it, just hearsay as dodgy as the 'evidence' the he was poisoned by Salieri, or by a fellow freemason. We could also say that there is "evidence" that Beethoven lusted after his nephew Carl, since someone or another reported it, and made that allegation; but an honest and balanced assessment would conclude that the evidence is not credible.

Around all great and famous people rumours and stories and mythologies will inevitably circulate. More often than not, the rumours will include stories of sexual misbehaviour/adventure. This fact must be borne in mind. Hearsay reported in a letter in 1827 over thirty years after his death is far from compelling! My original argument was that there is no plausible evidence that he was a womaniser. For those characters in history who truly were womanisers there is usually ample evidence of their prediliction, but with Mozart there are a few odd bits of hearsay that he had an affair ... that is not enough!

[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited February 02, 2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
There is evidence, but no CREDIBLE evidence for it, just hearsay as dodgy as the 'evidence' the he was poisoned by Salieri

In the biography written by Constanze's 2nd husband Nissen he writes "and even if there were flirtations, the good wife willingly forgave" he continues "Mozart drank champagne and tokay and lived loosely." Constanze herself told Vincent Novello in 1829 "he would not take the trouble to give piano lessons to any ladies but those he was in love with

Now Constanze has benen villified by music historians in the past but Robbins Landon paints an altogether different picture of her in his fascinating book 'Mozart's last year' claiming that this slander stems from Leopold Mozart. So it depends whether you consider his wife a credible witness or not.

Aside from this Otto Jahn declared in his collective essays on music (1866) "it seems to me totally unjustified to doubt the reliabilty of Czerny's information" (re. Hofdemel). The full facts of the Hofdemel incident were told to Jahn by the musicologist Kochel whose reliabilty in all other matters is never doubted.

So if it is just heresay as you claim, we must conclude that Kochel and Czerny are unreliable also on this matter.

Finally neither Constanze nor Magdalena Hofdemel ever denied the rumours, though they had ample time and opportunity to do so.

Whilst not conclusive evidence I don't think one can be quite as dismissive as many historians have been in the past.


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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited February 02, 2004).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Peter:
In the biography written by Constanze's 2nd husband Nissen he writes "and even if there were flirtations, the good wife willingly forgave" he continues "Mozart drank champagne and tokay and lived loosely." Constanze herself told Vincent Novello in 1829 "he would not take the trouble to give piano lessons to any ladies but those he was in love with

Now Constanze has benen villified by music historians in the past but Robbins Landon paints an altogether different picture of her in his fascinating book 'Mozart's last year' claiming that this slander stems from Leopold Mozart. So it depends whether you consider his wife a credible witness or not.

Aside from this Otto Jahn declared in his collective essays on music (1866) "it seems to me totally unjustified to doubt the reliabilty of Czerny's information" (re. Hofdemel). The full facts of the Hofdemel incident were told to Jahn by the musicologist Kochel whose reliabilty in all other matters is never doubted.

So if it is just heresay as you claim, we must conclude that Kochel and Czerny are unreliable also on this matter.

Finally neither Constanze nor Magdalena Hofdemel ever denied the rumours, though they had ample time and opportunity to do so.

Whilst not conclusive evidence I don't think one can be quite as dismissive as many historians have been in the past.

Peter,
If you have read 1791 as you say, why do you not find Robbins-Landon's discussion of the Hofdemel incident as persuasive as the other which you cite? Jahn first enters the picture in 1848 after all, so even if he got some first-hand testimony, it is 60 years (and a million rumors) removed from real time, so I don't credit it very far. I think HCRL's application of logic to this episode is fairly convincing. The time aspect alone (any baby would have to have been conceived in late July 1791 when M was undoubtedly in the depths of composition) makes it unlikely, but add to this the fact that even the dead husband (he killed himself after the attack on his wife) never said anything like "and this is for your dalliance with that Salzburg scamp you cheating b#$%@!", gossips simply looked at the timing (the day after M's death) and said "Oh he must have flipped out over that silly bugger boffing his wife", and so legends are born. I think it is ridiculous.



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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Peter,
If you have read 1791 as you say, why do you not find Robbins-Landon's discussion of the Hofdemel incident as persuasive as the other which you cite? Jahn first enters the picture in 1848 after all, so even if he got some first-hand testimony, it is 60 years (and a million rumors) removed from real time, so I don't credit it very far. I think HCRL's application of logic to this episode is fairly convincing. The time aspect alone (any baby would have to have been conceived in late July 1791 when M was undoubtedly in the depths of composition) makes it unlikely, but add to this the fact that even the dead husband (he killed himself after the attack on his wife) never said anything like "and this is for your dalliance with that Salzburg scamp you cheating b#$%@!", gossips simply looked at the timing (the day after M's death) and said "Oh he must have flipped out over that silly bugger boffing his wife", and so legends are born. I think it is ridiculous.

Well in the same book Robbins-Landon goes on to restore Constanze's reputation - so do you then dismiss her comments by the same token? She told Novello (according to Robbins-landon - in the most reliable and accurate impression of Constanze recorded) that her husband "would not take the trouble to give piano lessons to any ladies but those he was in love with."

Despite the time factor, Jahn's opinion of Czerny and Kochel cannot be so easily dismissed. Perhaps you are then suggesting we dismiss all Czerny's remarks in relation to Beethoven? Is Czerny's recollection to Jahn about Magdalena Hofdemel and Beethoven's reaction to her request then not true?

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Amalie:

I wonder what the current state of research is on the cause/s of Mozart's death.
I find it odd that his body was never autopsied and that his remains were lost, seven years later when his grave was dug up for reuse. Didn't Constanza keep a lock of his hair?
One theory is that he died from Trichinosis, through eating parasite-infested pork.
Another theory, is that he over medicated himself on mercury for the treatment of syphilis.
It would be good to know up to date thinking on this.

[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 01, 2004).]

I have heard the rumour of the parasite infested pork also but I have not heard about the kidney problems from a life time of infections. Also I heard he had died from the plague that was going around at that time and that's why he was buried hurriedly and without ceremony. Does anyone know anything about this? Why was he buried in this fashion? Anyway, it's a fascinating subject and I'm enjoying everyone's input.



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well in the same book Robbins-Landon goes on to restore Constanze's reputation - so do you then dismiss her comments by the same token? She told Novello (according to Robbins-landon - in the most reliable and accurate impression of Constanze recorded) that her husband "would not take the trouble to give piano lessons to any ladies but those he was in love with."

Despite the time factor, Jahn's opinion of Czerny and Kochel cannot be so easily dismissed. Perhaps you are then suggesting we dismiss all Czerny's remarks in relation to Beethoven? Is Czerny's recollection to Jahn about Magdalena Hofdemel and Beethoven's reaction to her request then not true?

Peter,
No, no, not at all. I think that B thought (as Czerny says) that the whole thing may have been true. My point is that just because B believed it to be true does not make it so!
As for Constanze saying that M wouldn't give lessons to any woman he wasn't in love with, I think that the spin you are getting from it, that he was having an affair with each of them, is perhaps a bit of a stretch, what i think she meant, plainly speaking, is that he would inevitably be in love with them, not necessarily in the physical sense but rather in the spiritual sense. If he was sleeping with all of his students, I strongly suspect that C wouldn't have been gazing fondly back with nostalgia, she would have poisoned him herself!



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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Chaszz]

As long as Mozart's personality is being discussed, I will just mention that I understand that he was fixated on feces and his letters to his sisters and parents are sometimes full of references to them. There is one letter particularly to his sister where he says he would dearly like to smear it all over her face and neck. I don't know if this was common in the 18th C. or Wolfgang was somehat odd in this respect. I also think it kind of odd that his parents and sister went along with these jokes.

Perhaps the extreme artificiality of meanners and dress in that era brought out an opposite reaction in joking???

[v russo]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
Regarding the issue of infidelity, I just want to add that there is not, in my humble opinion, any persuasive or compelling evidence that Mozart was a womaniser. I say reaffirm this in light of the allegations that other posters have reported above.

I have no desire to depict him as a saint. It wouldn't bother me personally at all if I thought he truly was, but it really seems in truth that he wasn't. There is evidence, but no CREDIBLE evidence for it, just hearsay as dodgy as the 'evidence' the he was poisoned by Salieri, or by a fellow freemason. We could also say that there is "evidence" that Beethoven lusted after his nephew Carl, since someone or another reported it, and made that allegation; but an honest and balanced assessment would conclude that the evidence is not credible.

Around all great and famous people rumours and stories and mythologies will inevitably circulate. More often than not, the rumours will include stories of sexual misbehaviour/adventure. This fact must be borne in mind. Hearsay reported in a letter in 1827 over thirty years after his death is far from compelling! My original argument was that there is no plausible evidence that he was a womaniser. For those characters in history who truly were womanisers there is usually ample evidence of their prediliction, but with Mozart there are a few odd bits of hearsay that he had an affair ... that is not enough!

[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited February 02, 2004).]

This is not a court of law Steppenwolf (EX."CREDIBLE EVIDENCE")this is just a forum. No one is condeming that drunk, womanizing, weirdo!

8)



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v russo

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
As long as Mozart's personality is being discussed, I will just mention that I understand that he was fixated on feces and his letters to his sisters and parents are sometimes full of references to them. There is one letter particularly to his sister where he says he would dearly like to smear it all over her face and neck. I don't know if this was common in the 18th C. or Wolfgang was somehat odd in this respect. I also think it kind of odd that his parents and sister went along with these jokes.
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There is no question that the age was a crude one, but there must have been a sense that he was over stepping the mark with his crude practical jokes. Doubtless some can explained by that fact that he was very spoiled when he a small boy, and if people keep telling you and your father that you are a great genius, inevitably a person would think they could get away with anything. I wouldn't suggest for one moment there is any real comparison, but the Roman emperor Caligula, was partly turned into a monster, many think by being exremely spoilt when he was a boy. He boasted when he was an Emperor with some truth that the legions refused march into Battle, unless he, their mascot, 'dubbed little boots', was with them. Of course, Mozart was used to wielding great power over his audiences when a small boy, and they may encouraged the belief that he was all powerfull in later life. I guess we really don't know what the effect is on small children on the hundreds and thousands of adoring grown ups before them.


Perhaps the extreme artificiality of meanners and dress in that era brought out an opposite reaction in joking???

[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 02, 2004).]

[Amalie]

The problem was with Mozart is in human terms is that perhaps he never really fully grew up.
Beethoven very quickly matured, as at a very young age, he had to take on the responsibility as head of the family.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:

Peter,
No, no, not at all. I think that B thought (as Czerny says) that the whole thing may have been true. My point is that just because B believed it to be true does not make it so!
As for Constanze saying that M wouldn't give lessons to any woman he wasn't in love with, I think that the spin you are getting from it, that he was having an affair with each of them, is perhaps a bit of a stretch, what i think she meant, plainly speaking, is that he would inevitably be in love with them, not necessarily in the physical sense but rather in the spiritual sense. If he was sleeping with all of his students, I strongly suspect that C wouldn't have been gazing fondly back with nostalgia, she would have poisoned him herself!

Well I agree just because Beethoven thought it was true, it doesn't make it so and I also agree there is no conclusive evidence. My point is that more than one credible person has made reference to the Hofdemel affair, Czerny, Jahn and Kochel (who no one doubts on other matters) - indeed Jahn put in writing his annoyance that people doubted Czerny's information.

When one considers the climate that 19th century scholars were working in, suppression of uncomfortable details was not uncommon. Jahn himself witheld many details of the Hofdemel story.
Actually the Novellos were surpised to find Constanze to be far from the reverential wife they had expected - she wasn't gazing back fondly with nostalgia at all.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited February 02, 2004).]

[Andrea]

Originally posted by Amalie:

I wonder what the current state of research is on the cause/s of Mozart's death.
I find it odd that his body was never autopsied and that his remains were lost, seven years later when his grave was dug up for reuse. Didn't Constanza keep a lock of his hair?


[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 01, 2004).]

There is a lock of Mozart's hair available. It was on display last year in an exhibit I saw here in Vienna. So why hasn't there been a DNA test done on this like they did with Beethoven's hair? I don't remember if this locket with Mozart's hair is privately owned or if it belongs to the City of Vienna. I would be interested in seeing a DNA test done on it and finding out more about Mozart.

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
As long as Mozart's personality is being discussed, I will just mention that I understand that he was fixated on feces and his letters to his sisters and parents are sometimes full of references to them. There is one letter particularly to his sister where he says he would dearly like to smear it all over her face and neck. I don't know if this was common in the 18th C. or Wolfgang was somehat odd in this respect.

I have wondered about this too. But after some thinking I came up with a theory.

Mozart, it seems, enjoyed telling smutty jokes. To that extent the depiction is Amadeus is an accurate one. But what puzzles us is that these jokes don't seem conventional dirty jokes - they seem not only unfunny, but quite bizare and weird.

I offer two possible reasons for this. One, that he said these 'jokes' in German, whereas we are native English speakers, and secondly, he uttered them in a different society over two hundred years ago. So we have the language barrier, the time gap and the culture divide.

Smuttiness, and coarse humour, is an ultimate form of colloquialism. And colloquialisms rarely make much sense on a literal level, as anyone who learns colloquial expressions in another language comes to understand. They seem to make sense to us only by familiarity.

Imagine somebody, speaking another language, in another culture, centuries in the future, trying to translate into a scholarly work common, rude jokes and vulgar expressions of the English language in our time. They would find their literal meaning weird and bizare. Did English speakers really say "Kiss my backside" (Kiss my ass) or "Copulate as you move quickly away from me! ("F*** off!"), and why on earth did anyone find it fashionable or funny to accuse others of incestuous relations with their mothers ("Mother F***er)? These coarse expressions would seem bizare, weird and warped to anyone unfamiliar with them. Perhaps it was a common form of abuse to wish someone had feces smeared all over them, just as now it is common to wish someone to go off and copulate with himself.

So perhaps Mozart, who had a smutty sense of humour, was just expressing that humour in the standard, colloquial idiom of 18th century Austria?

I encountered the same problem when I studied Latin at school and read the Roman poet Catullus, many of whose poems contain sexual jokes and coarse humour, which when translated literally seemed unbelievably perverted and weird ... but in the context of the time the manner of expression probably seemed normal.

[Ahmad]

I do agree with your nalysis Steppenwolf..as it's unreasonable to translate every word mentioned in Mozart's letters literally..
On the other hand I find it impossible to be a musician (which means a very sensitive and creative man)and a bizarre man doindg such stuff on the same time..it's my opinion and I may be wrong..

[Ahmad]

Originally posted by Amalie:

The problem was with Mozart is in human terms is that perhaps he never really fully grew up.
Beethoven very quickly matured, as at a very young age, he had to take on the responsibility as head of the family.

That's true,but I think the type of personality that one has is something he is born with..