How I came to this forum
I was actually reading about Carl Orff's "Carmina Burana" when the Amazon site listings of composers caught my eye. "What did Beethoven die of?" it asked, among other attention-getting references to composers. The first answer that came to mind was "disgust," and while I was laughing (I'm a trained musician, so I know that's not technically true, but why was he shaking his fists at the heavens, as the lightning flashed, just before his last breath?), I clicked into this site. Glad I did--nice!
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Originally posted by ILoveLudwig:
I was actually reading about Carl Orff's "Carmina Burana" when the Amazon site listings of composers caught my eye. "What did Beethoven die of?" it asked, among other attention-getting references to composers. The first answer that came to mind was "disgust," and while I was laughing (I'm a trained musician, so I know that's not technically true, but why was he shaking his fists at the heavens, as the lightning flashed, just before his last breath?), I clicked into this site. Glad I did--nice!
May I say that I think that the legend Beethoven shook his fist at the heavens on his death bed, is just that - a legend or myth.
The story of Beethoven apparently 'shaking his fist at the heavens' in a final act of defiance before oblivion has been dismissed as a romantic fiction by most biographers.
Surprisingly, this phenomenon is an accurate clinical observation: people who die of hepatic failure often react in an exaggerated way to sudden stimuli such as bright light. This is due to the accumulation of toxic waste products normally excreted by the liver.
Beethoven's gestsure may be seen as having been due to the cerebral irritation which accompanies hepatic failure, not as a conscious act!
[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited April 13, 2004).]~ Courage, so it be righteous, will gain all things ~ -
Amalie,
Thank you so much for saying that, before I got the chance to look up the reference I had and post it myself. Yes, hepatic failure, quite so. But the other makes such a nice story, and a pretty picture too, considering it is the moment of truth.
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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Amalie:
[B]
May I say that I think that the legend Beethoven shook his fist at the heavens on his death bed, is just that - a legend or myth.
(edited by ILoveLudwig)
I recall reading somewhere on a Beethoven site (when or where, I can't say at the moment) that someone studied the weather records of Vienna at the time that Beethoven expired, and that there actually WAS a thunderstorm recorded as having occurred in Vienna during his last moments. Whether he shook his fist, or why, is an interesting matter for conjecture. (I must add that it is so interesting to be able to discuss all these ideas on this site!)Comment
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Amalie:
[b]
The story of Beethoven apparently 'shaking his fist at the heavens' in a final act of defiance before oblivion has been dismissed...
[This message has been edited by ILoveLudwig on April 13, 2004]
Sorry, but I couldn't resist--if ANYONE has NOT gone into "oblivion" it's Beethoven! He was definitely "in tune" with whatever wonders are beyond this existence, and I'm sure he's gone there. And here we are a century and decades later, still discussing and trying to figure out what he did and what he was about when he was here!
[This message has been edited by ILoveLudwig (edited April 13, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by ILoveLudwig (edited April 13, 2004).]Comment
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[quote]Originally posted by ILoveLudwig:
[b]I believe there was actually a thunderstorm going on at the time of death also if I recall a snowstorm was occurring which was really a freak weather system on that fateful afternoon.Originally posted by Amalie:
May I say that I think that the legend Beethoven shook his fist at the heavens on his death bed, is just that - a legend or myth.
(edited by ILoveLudwig)
I recall reading somewhere on a Beethoven site (when or where, I can't say at the moment) that someone studied the weather records of Vienna at the time that Beethoven expired, and that there actually WAS a thunderstorm recorded as having occurred in Vienna during his last moments. Whether he shook his fist, or why, is an interesting matter for conjecture. (I must add that it is so interesting to be able to discuss all these ideas on this site!)
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'Truth and beauty joined''Truth and beauty joined'Comment
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That was all reported by Anselm Hüttenbrenner. So far I know, he was a very honest and upright man. "...probably the last lines, I write in a musically relationship." (letter to Thayer of August 20th, 1860) He admired L.v.B!, I have no doubt about his words.
[This message has been edited by Pastorali (edited April 14, 2004).]Comment
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I am so glad that one of the most interesting and inspiring stories in the history of art has been reduced to nothing more than technical, medical babble and has been written of as 'myth'. Maybe Beethoven did shake his fist at the thunder cloud in one last salute and moment of defiance! Is this not a possiblity?
...dream people, dream.
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v russo
[This message has been edited by v russo (edited April 14, 2004).]v russoComment
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Yes, and why SHOULDN'T it be true? Just because "most" biographers said "not" doesn't mean that the people who were there didn't see it, whatever maladies may have contributed to the gesture. But it seems so in tune with some of Beethoven's "spunk."Originally posted by v russo:
I am so glad that one of the most interesting and inspiring stories in the history of art has been reduced to nothing more than technical, medical babble and has been written of as 'myth'. Maybe Beethoven did shake his fist at the thunder cloud in one last salute and moment of defiance! Is this not a possiblity?
...dream people, dream.
[This message has been edited by ILoveLudwig (edited April 14, 2004).]Comment
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v russoOriginally posted by v russo:
I am so glad that one of the most interesting and inspiring stories in the history of art has been reduced to nothing more than technical, medical babble and has been written of as 'myth'. Maybe Beethoven did shake his fist at the thunder cloud in one last salute and moment of defiance! Is this not a possiblity?
...dream people, dream.
Why angry? It has not been reduced to nothing more than...but it is also a theme. For me, the music is most important.
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I am not angry. I was just making a point. There are eye witness accounts to back up this "myth" so to speak....Originally posted by Pastorali:
v russo
Why angry? It has not been reduced to nothing more than...but it is also a theme. For me, the music is most important.
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v russov russoComment
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Ok, v russo. I only interpreted that red smiley and I thought you are
regards
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well, maybe a little mad for a second.Originally posted by Pastorali:
Ok, v russo. I only interpreted that red smiley and I thought you are
regards
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v russov russoComment
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I see we got a lot of Beethoven fan Comedians.
I'm quite of hilarious too you know.
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