Johanna and Ludwig

[Andrea]

I'm interested to find out everyone's opinion here as to which Beethoven biography is the most accurate. It's obvious to me that many of the later biographers who never met Beethoven took some of their information from those writers who actually met or knew Beethoven like Anton Schindler or Gerhard von Breuning. But actually these two men were not entirely reliable either. So who do you believe?

Did anyone who knew Beethoven ever write a totally accurate biography of the Master? Did Johann Aloys Schlosser, who wrote the book "Beethoven: The First Biography, 1827", do a good job of it? This is one Beethoven book I have not read yet and I am wondering if it is worth adding to my collection.

[Gurn Blanston]

Andrea,
I haven't read Schlosser yet either, but hopefully Tegan will weigh in here because she told me a few weeks ago that she had just gotten it and read it, I seem to recall that she said it was amusing at best, which doesn't bode well, I fear I personally still think Thayer is the one to go with if you just want one. But a variety of opinion is always the best choice, so maybe some Cooper, Lockwood, Solomon and whatever else you can find to supplement the Thayer is the way to go.



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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[spaceray]

How about these authors books on Beethoven,
Alan Blackwood,
Nancy Loewen,
Ates Orga,
Robin May,
and William Kinderman,can they be recomended?

[Joy]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Joy,
But you aren't the one rewriting history, this is the problem. By this time, now far removed from the real time of course, the information we have gotten has been filtered by so many people that we cannot know what to believe. And the things that we know to be probably true are likewise presented so many times over with an apologist viewpoint that we are now predisposed to think of them that way. Look very simply at what all the opinions of Joanna are. I have never read anything that wasn't totally negative. And yet this is based, so far as we know, on the mere fact that she had something B wanted and he fought her over it, besides which Schindler hated her for reasons of his own (he hated Karl too, likely out of jealousy) and as a result every book since has perpetuated the things about her that B and S thought. But truly, you and I have no vague idea how much of that is true. I very frankly doubt that ANY of it is true, at least to the extent that it is portrayed in books. So, we don't have to accept or reject the truth, it has already been done for us. That is what I am upset about. I think that we need to rebel against this, not just fall into line because it is what we want to believe anyway. We would all like to believe that B wa altruistically doing this for the good of the boy and the evil Joanna would have ruined him. I personally think B ruined him. So it goes. And this is one small example of many.

Oh, I agree that Beethoven wasn't doing all of this out of the 'good' for the boy. That might have ben a part of it but I'm sure he had some inner turmoil with Johanna to make it so personal with him that he had to have possession of the boy. I'm surprised that Karl lived a rather normal life after all he suffered in his childhood, being shuffeled from one place to another all those years. Of course we will never know for sure all the true details and facts but at least we can piece together a bit of history anyway. I think we were mainly objecting to Soloman's psychoanaylsis of the situation which (in my opinion) is just that, his opinion.



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Andrea:


Did anyone who knew Beethoven ever write a totally accurate biography of the Master? Did Johann Aloys Schlosser, who wrote the book "Beethoven: The First Biography, 1827", do a good job of it? This is one Beethoven book I have not read yet and I am wondering if it is worth adding to my collection.

Andrea, I don't know if there is any absolute accurate books out there on anyone but I have just read Lockwood's book on the life of Beethoven and it was a good read. Much about all the aspects of his life and a lot about his music. Very interesting indeed. Also I think you can't go wrong with Thayer Vol. I and II.



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by spaceray:
How about these authors books on Beethoven,
Alan Blackwood,
Nancy Loewen,
Ates Orga,
Robin May,
and William Kinderman,can they be recomended?

space,
I have read good things about Kinderman's effort, although I have not read it. I HAVE read his essays in Scott Burnham's book and was impressed with the scholarship. Of course, like most of us, I am particularly impressed with those who agree the most with me. All others are suspect at best




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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Peter]

Originally posted by Andrea:
I'm interested to find out everyone's opinion here as to which Beethoven biography is the most accurate. It's obvious to me that many of the later biographers who never met Beethoven took some of their information from those writers who actually met or knew Beethoven like Anton Schindler or Gerhard von Breuning. But actually these two men were not entirely reliable either. So who do you believe?

Did anyone who knew Beethoven ever write a totally accurate biography of the Master? Did Johann Aloys Schlosser, who wrote the book "Beethoven: The First Biography, 1827", do a good job of it? This is one Beethoven book I have not read yet and I am wondering if it is worth adding to my collection.

Without a doubt no one before Thayer applied the same level of scholarship and all modern biographers are indebted to him. He wasn't however infallible so the edited Thayer-Forbes edition is the one to go for.

Although I haven't read it, Robbins-Landon is generally reliable and entertaining. Beethoven: His Life, Work and World, H.C. Robbins Landon, Thames & Hudson. 1993.

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'Man know thyself'

[King Stephen]

Originally posted by Peter:
No - throw Solomon away! Surely Beethoven's dislike of Johanna is evident from all the correspondence. There has also been a suggestion in some quarters that Beethoven was actually karl's real father!
After the court cases for custody were finally settled in Beethoven's favour in 1820, he relented a little and took pity on her by sending some money (perhaps a guilty conscience for having gone against his brother's wishes? - there is no doubt that had Beethoven complied all would have been much happier, especially Karl who probably would never have attempted suicide, hastening Beethoven's own death.)

Peter, Do not throw it away some poor misguided soul may find it and think he or she is reading the ultimate on Beethoven.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Peter:
Without a doubt no one before Thayer applied the same level of scholarship and all modern biographers are indebted to him. He wasn't however infallible so the edited Thayer-Forbes edition is the one to go for.

Although I haven't read it, Robbins-Landon is generally reliable and entertaining. Beethoven: His Life, Work and World, H.C. Robbins Landon, Thames & Hudson. 1993.

Amen on Thayer/Forbes, I didn't say that more precisely because I thought it was the only version you could get now. Apparently not.
As for
Beethoven: His Life, Work and World, H.C. Robbins Landon, Thames & Hudson. 1993.

I just finished reading it last week in fact. It is indeed packed with good information. However, be forewarned, it is not set up like any book I have ever read. It is a 300+ page listing of documents by people, letters, adverts, criticisms etc. which are strung together with little or no connecting narrative. I have some Robbins-Landon on Mozart and Haydn, and he is a very good writer, but you will find no evidence of that in this book, since he has written nothing. That being said, it is an excellent resource for documentary materials. Docs which I have previously read excerpted for the purpose of illustrating a point are frequently presented in their entirety here, which makes it nice to get some context. So, if you have several books this is a useful adjunct. If you are looking for one book to supply your boigraphical needs, this is not it.


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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Andrea]

I'm glad to see a couple of names that I don't have in my collection. Here are the ones that I do have:
Thayer/Forbes
George R. Marek
Maynard Solomon
Ates Orga
John Crabbe
Denis Matthews
George Grove
Walter Riezler
Gerhard von Breuning
H.C. Robbins Landon
Joseph Kerman and Alan Tyson
Philippe Autexier
Robin May
Arnoldo Mondadori
Joseph Schmidt-Görg and Hans Schmidt

And 4 books on Beethoven letters, journals and conversations edited by:
Michael Hamburger
Friedrich Kerst and Edward Krehbiel
A. Eaglefield-Hull
O.G. Sonneck

I'll have to check out some of the other books mentioned here. Thanks for all of your help.

[Gurn Blanston]

Andrea,
Well, you are much better stocked than I am, I only have 8 or 9 B books, doing better on Mozart though, maybe there are just more out there. Anyway, I wanted to ask you about the letters books. I have a chance to get the Hamburger book, is it as good as any of that genre?


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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Andrea]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Andrea,
Well, you are much better stocked than I am, I only have 8 or 9 B books, doing better on Mozart though, maybe there are just more out there. Anyway, I wanted to ask you about the letters books. I have a chance to get the Hamburger book, is it as good as any of that genre?

Well Gurn, I bought this book and read it back in 1984. I enjoyed it and you'll find not only letters by Beethoven but also comments on the Master and his music from some of his contemporaries. I don't know what this book costs nowadays but for me it was $7.95 well spent.

[Joy]

Originally posted by King Stephen:
Peter, Do not throw it away some poor misguided soul may find it and think he or she is reading the ultimate on Beethoven.

You're right! Burn it then!


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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:

I only have 8 or 9 B books, doing better on Mozart though, maybe there are just more out there.

Gurn, I have about 12 books on Beethoven and some I have found in second hand book shops where they are quite affordable. A few I bought when I visited the Beethoven Museum in San Jose, Calif. where I purchased them for only a few dollars each, a steal! Most of the time I visit the library but I think I have read most of the books they have on Beethoven so I will have to find another source.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
Without a doubt no one before Thayer applied the same level of scholarship and all modern biographers are indebted to him. He wasn't however infallible so the edited Thayer-Forbes edition is the one to go for.

You're right, the Thayer-Forbes edition is the one to have. That's the one I have.



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'Truth and beauty joined'