Johanna and Ludwig

[spaceray]

I have just read in Maynard Solomon's
"Beethoven" a suggestion that Johanna and Ludwig had some sort of daliance after the death of Beethoven's brother ,can this be right?

[Peter]

No - throw Solomon away! Surely Beethoven's dislike of Johanna is evident from all the correspondence. There has also been a suggestion in some quarters that Beethoven was actually karl's real father!
After the court cases for custody were finally settled in Beethoven's favour in 1820, he relented a little and took pity on her by sending some money (perhaps a guilty conscience for having gone against his brother's wishes? - there is no doubt that had Beethoven complied all would have been much happier, especially Karl who probably would never have attempted suicide, hastening Beethoven's own death.)

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited April 12, 2004).]

[spaceray]

Well that's just fine now that I'm halfway through it.Since it's a library book I won't throw it out,however the temptation to go on reading this is compelling even if he doesn't have a leg to stand on.

At my library
Books on Beethoven = 6
Books on Wagner =23
Sometimes it seems you just can't win.

[Joy]

Muriel, I wouldn't take Solomon's book too seriously. I have it and read it with a grain of salt. I didn't realize when I bought it that he would be insinuating all the views of Beethoven and Johanna's relationship. I think the movie "The Immortal Beloved" must have taken a lot of ideas from Solomon's book. He does a lot of psycho analisis of Beethoven's relationships and other parts of his life.
Our library has a ton of Books on Beethoven and I think I've read almost all of them!

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:
Muriel, I wouldn't take Solomon's book too seriously. I have it and read it with a grain of salt. I didn't realize when I bought it that he would be insinuating all the views of Beethoven and Johanna's relationship. I think the movie "The Immortal Beloved" must have taken a lot of ideas from Solomon's book. He does a lot of psycho analisis of Beethoven's relationships and other parts of his life.
Our library has a ton of Books on Beethoven and I think I've read almost all of them!

What is more worrying than Solomon's psychoanalysis is the fact that every music writer and professor seems to accept his view of things without question.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Joy:
Muriel, I wouldn't take Solomon's book too seriously. I have it and read it with a grain of salt. I didn't realize when I bought it that he would be insinuating all the views of Beethoven and Johanna's relationship. I think the movie "The Immortal Beloved" must have taken a lot of ideas from Solomon's book. He does a lot of psycho analisis of Beethoven's relationships and other parts of his life.
Our library has a ton of Books on Beethoven and I think I've read almost all of them!

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Joy:
Muriel, I wouldn't take Solomon's book too seriously. I have it and read it with a grain of salt. I didn't realize when I bought it that he would be insinuating all the views of Beethoven and Johanna's relationship. I think the movie "The Immortal Beloved" must have taken a lot of ideas from Solomon's book. He does a lot of psycho analisis of Beethoven's relationships and other parts of his life.
Our library has a ton of Books on Beethoven and I think I've read almost all of them!

Joy,
I have enjoyed several books you recomended to me especially the Impressions by his Contemporaries,and I loved the kids Video "Beethoven Lives Upstairs" but I didn't like Immortal Beloved and turned it off after only a few minutes.
One interesting book I bought recently is the Deutsche Grammophon Beethoven Bicentennial Edition book that came with The Complete Works of Beethoven series of LP's they released in '72 I think. The book is by a dozen German Scholars whos names are not familiar.It looks quite interesting.
Muriel

[Gurn Blanston]

I accept ALL history with a grain of salt, not just Solomon's. There is no biographer who doesn't have an axe to grind. However, just because Solomon doesn't say what we wish he would say, there is no reason for us to emulate Schindler and try to cover up everything about the man's character that was offends us (well, not to me maybe). This sort of revisionism should be repellent to everyone, much more so than finding out that the truth isn't what we wish it would be. I am not saying here that Solomon is the one who is finally telling the truth, but it seems to me that we are only willing to accept those biographers who present the Romanticized viewpoint that "our man" is larger than life and has no faults that can't be explained away. The same thing happens with Mozart. These were just two men who had a compelling talent for composition, not perfect gods on Earth. I know that I will never sway you, this has already been proven, but equally you will never convince me that sanitization is acceptable in any way. So it goes.


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[This message has been edited by Gurn Blanston (edited April 13, 2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
I accept ALL history with a grain of salt, not just Solomon's. There is no biographer who doesn't have an axe to grind. However, just because Solomon doesn't say what we wish he would say, there is no reason for us to emulate Schindler and try to cover up everything about the man's character that was offends us (well, not to me maybe). This sort of revisionism should be repellent to everyone, much more so than finding out that the truth isn't what we wish it would be. I am not saying here that Solomon is the one who is finally telling the truth, but it seems to me that we are only willing to accept those biographers who present the Romanticized viewpoint that "our man" is larger than life and has no faults that can't be explained away. The same thing happens with Mozart. These were just two men who had a compelling talent for composition, not perfect gods on Earth. I know that I will never sway you, this has already been proven, but equally you will never convince me that sanitization is acceptable in any way. So it goes.

There are no grounds for Solomon's theory about Johanna, this is pure speculation and psychological drivel. Sanitisation is a distortion of the facts which Solomon himself is guilty of. I'm the first to point out that Beethoven was only human, in fact I recall my first post on a Beethoven forum, edepot, where I made just that point and got slated for it!

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'Man know thyself'

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Peter:
There are no grounds for Solomon's theory about Johanna, this is pure speculation and psychological drivel. Sanitisation is a distortion of the facts which Solomon himself is guilty of. I'm the first to point out that Beethoven was only human, in fact I recall my first post on a Beethoven forum, edepot, where I made just that point and got slated for it!

Peter,
As it happens, while I quite agree with you about B and J, that does not invalidate the entire book, IMHO, which is really what I am on about. Just because there are some things that we don't agree with in a book, it doesn't render the entire tome incorrect, and that is what it seems to me that is being said here.


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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Joy]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Joy,
I have enjoyed several books you recomended to me especially the Impressions by his Contemporaries,and I loved the kids Video "Beethoven Lives Upstairs" but I didn't like Immortal Beloved and turned it off after only a few minutes.
One interesting book I bought recently is the Deutsche Grammophon Beethoven Bicentennial Edition book that came with The Complete Works of Beethoven series of LP's they released in '72 I think. The book is by a dozen German Scholars whos names are not familiar.It looks quite interesting.
Muriel

Hi, Muriel, so glad to hear that you were pleased with some of my recommendations (and also glad that you did not enjoy "Immortal Beloved). I was wondering if
the "Bicentennial Edition 1770-1970" is the same one I have? I found it in a second hand bookstore and I got it for a steal. It's a beautifully illistrated book. The first portrait in the book is by Joseph Schmidt-Gorg - Hans Schmidt. Mine, however, did not come with the Complete Book of Beethoven's series of LP's. Sounds like you got quite a find.



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
I accept ALL history with a grain of salt, not just Solomon's. There is no biographer who doesn't have an axe to grind. However, just because Solomon doesn't say what we wish he would say, there is no reason for us to emulate Schindler and try to cover up everything about the man's character that was offends us (well, not to me maybe). This sort of revisionism should be repellent to everyone, much more so than finding out that the truth isn't what we wish it would be. I am not saying here that Solomon is the one who is finally telling the truth, but it seems to me that we are only willing to accept those biographers who present the Romanticized viewpoint that "our man" is larger than life and has no faults that can't be explained away. The same thing happens with Mozart. These were just two men who had a compelling talent for composition, not perfect gods on Earth. I know that I will never sway you, this has already been proven, but equally you will never convince me that sanitization is acceptable in any way. So it goes.

I, too, accept history and historians rather skeptically, I'm afraid. The ax we are grinding with Soloman's book, however, is that he has no evidence to back up his theories and, don't forget, these are his theories. I must confess I haven't read the book in a long, long time, but for some reason tht section dealing with Johanna and Beethoen's 'love affair' really sticks in my mind also fueled by the "Immortal Beloved" I suppose. It is quite a shame that some other scholars and teachers are just taking his word for it and teaching it like it was the gospel. I'm not looking for a 'perfect' Beethoven, believe me. I'm only to aware of all his faults, I'm realistic enough to accept his faults and anyone else's including my own for that matter. I would never rewrite history to make him out a Saint. To quote a much well informed man:
"That's my opinion, I may be wrong."



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Gurn Blanston]

Joy,
But you aren't the one rewriting history, this is the problem. By this time, now far removed from the real time of course, the information we have gotten has been filtered by so many people that we cannot know what to believe. And the things that we know to be probably true are likewise presented so many times over with an apologist viewpoint that we are now predisposed to think of them that way. Look very simply at what all the opinions of Joanna are. I have never read anything that wasn't totally negative. And yet this is based, so far as we know, on the mere fact that she had something B wanted and he fought her over it, besides which Schindler hated her for reasons of his own (he hated Karl too, likely out of jealousy) and as a result every book since has perpetuated the things about her that B and S thought. But truly, you and I have no vague idea how much of that is true. I very frankly doubt that ANY of it is true, at least to the extent that it is portrayed in books. So, we don't have to accept or reject the truth, it has already been done for us. That is what I am upset about. I think that we need to rebel against this, not just fall into line because it is what we want to believe anyway. We would all like to believe that B wa altruistically doing this for the good of the boy and the evil Joanna would have ruined him. I personally think B ruined him. So it goes. And this is one small example of many.



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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[marleylau22]

I just wanted to add in response to Solomon's book on Beethoven that I am currently in a class devoted to Beethoven and this is our textbook. While somewhat entertaining I find it hard to accept a lot of what this man has to say. He puts so much of his own opinion in the book that it gets to be ridiculous. Jsut wanted to add my 2 cents

[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Peter,
As it happens, while I quite agree with you about B and J, that does not invalidate the entire book, IMHO, which is really what I am on about. Just because there are some things that we don't agree with in a book, it doesn't render the entire tome incorrect, and that is what it seems to me that is being said here.

There's a lot in the book I don't agree with, basically whenever Solomon applies his flawed psychology. The Sterba book is another example of how ridiculous psychological theories become accepted as fact. I do agree with you about Beethoven and karl, and though I understand Beethoven's reasoning (Johanna did have a reputation), she was Karl's mother and there is no doubt that a lot of harm was done by trying to remove her from his life - just imagine the trauma a child would go through being told how evil his mother was!

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'Man know thyself'