Making Changes

[King Stephen]

There are many works that conductors and composers think need changing. The Schumann symphonies for example have been inundated by changes by different conductors over time. Their reasoning was that Schumann could not composer large-scale works for orchestra, that the piano was always in the back of his mind. Well, recently with the thanks to John Eliot Gardiner who claims, and I believe him to be right, that the large orchestras of today, with the doubling of sections is not, nor has it ever been conducive to Schumann's orchestral works. He, Gardiner took the approch of doing the symhonies with an orchestra of the size Schumann would have used. A quote by Gardiner states that conductors like Mahler and Weingartner "Didn't seem to have occured to them that what they saw as grave problems of imbalance in Schumann's symphonic writing had far more to do with the increased size and expanded sonority of their own late 19th century orchestras than with any ineptitude on Schumann's part". Some of the symphonies of Schubert have also undergone changes by no less a composer than Johannes Brahms. I would be lead to beleive that the same reasoning lay with Brahms changes in Schubert's works.
The conclusion to all of this is that I for one want to hear the music the way the composer composed it, no changes by other composers or conductors. We wouldn't change the smile on the Mona Lisa or the finale chapter of a Shakespeare work. Let's hear it the way it was composed. Who realy can say that the composer didn't want his or her music performed the way it was composed?
Can you hear me John Cage?

[This message has been edited by King Stephen (edited April 01, 2004).]

[Gurn Blanston]

King,
Well, I happen to have that Schumann set by Gardiner and I think it is first-rate. It was the first set I had so of course it is the one that sounds right to me! But I think Gardiner's logic in reprimanding the Late Romantics for destroying earlier works by overkill is impeccable. At least we are a little more enlightened today. I saw the Atlanta Symphony a few years back and they opened with Haydn's Symphony #99, and closed later with Franck's "Le Chasseur Maudit" (spelling?) and in the second, late romantic era piece, there were more violins on the stage than the whole orchestra for the Haydn. And there should have been, it was ideal.
As for the Schubert, I recently acquired The Hanover Band / Goodman HIP version (a bargain on Brilliant, $11 US for 4 disks!!) and I definitely prefer it to the "big band" sounds that I had previously. I like accuracy in any case, even though I may not be quite so rabid as Rod.


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[This message has been edited by Gurn Blanston (edited April 01, 2004).]

[v russo]

Well put Stephen:

It is a natural instict of we humans to see everything from the vantage point of our own time, and these great interpreters are as quilty as charged.

The integrity of the composers intentions before interpretation!!



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v russo

[This message has been edited by v russo (edited April 01, 2004).]

[King Stephen]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
King,
Well, I happen to have that Schumann set by Gardiner and I think it is first-rate. It was the first set I had so of course it is the one that sounds right to me! But I think Gardiner's logic in reprimanding the Late Romantics for destroying earlier works by overkill is impeccable. At least we are a little more enlightened today. I saw the Atlanta Symphony a few years back and they opened with Haydn's Symphony #99, and closed later with Franck's "Le Chasseur Maudit" (spelling?) and in the second, late romantic era piece, there were more violins on the stage than the whole orchestra for the Haydn. And there should have been, it was ideal.
As for the Schubert, I recently acquired The Hanover Band / Goodman HIP version (a bargain on Brilliant, $11 US for 4 disks!!) and I definitely prefer it to the "big band" sounds that I had previously. I like accuracy in any case, even though I may not be quite so rabid as Rod.

How do the the Hanover Band of the Schubert Symphonies sound? I have found from my own personal listening taste the the Hanover Band recordings sound as if they were recorded in a "Large Cave". I have yet to hear any of the Schubert works by them.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by King Stephen:
How do the the Hanover Band of the Schubert Symphonies sound? I have found from my own personal listening taste the the Hanover Band recordings sound as if they were recorded in a "Large Cave". I have yet to hear any of the Schubert works by them.

King,
Well, they sound great to me. I am pretty sure that Rod had recommended them to me (not for Schubert, of course ) as being a pretty good outfit. They usually record on Nimbus, and this recording is leased from Nimbus, perhaps they did some additional remastering to alter the sound??? There is always this possibility to consider: Perhaps it is authentic from those times to sound as though one were in a large cave?!?



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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[King Stephen]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
King,
Well, they sound great to me. I am pretty sure that Rod had recommended them to me (not for Schubert, of course ) as being a pretty good outfit. They usually record on Nimbus, and this recording is leased from Nimbus, perhaps they did some additional remastering to alter the sound??? There is always this possibility to consider: Perhaps it is authentic from those times to sound as though one were in a large cave?!?

Gurn, I was just listening to the Schubert 6th symphony performed by Nikolaus Harnoncourt and The Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra. Harnoncourt wrote the notes for the CD liner book. If I may Quote Harnoncourt
" Schubert's Symphonies were not published until around half a century after his death, when the first collected edition was taken in hand under Brahms's supervision". He goes on to say that " A comparison between the Brahms edition and the Schubert Autograph scores reveals an incalculable number of changes: changes in dynamics, tempi, articulation markings and instrumention, and even the music itself.He says more on the subect and the part that makes me shudder is that all of this was "intended to make these brillant works by an allegedly "Carless" composer "Playable" and "Enjoyable"." The only thing I do not know about these recordings is if Harnoncourt used the size of the orchestra that Schubert would have used, but I do like them.

[Gurn Blanston]

King,
I knew they hadn't been played in his lifetime, but didn't realize how far down the road it was! Surely Harnoncourt and Goodman used the equivalent of an Urtext edition, I would hope. Schubert was anything but careless, it kind of reminds me of all the little changes made in B's scores by well-meaning butchers who said "surely he didn't mean THAT, let's fix it up to honor his memory"!! (Insert vociferous curse words here) The problem with determining orchestra size with Schubert is that he didn't really have an orchestra or access to one, so one must make assumptions on what he had in mind. The orchestral forces of B's 9th? Or of Mozart's 39th? Tough question, and you probably won't ever be sure of the answer.


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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