Coming from the darkness... enlightenment?

[Aeurnoid]

I come from the darkness of "lurking" as I finally shed some light upon LvB, his music and individuality and also upon this adoration-site.

I broke my total ignorance of the classical music when I was 22 (2 years ago) and see that as a necessary musical and spiritual development of me. Then, it was a fate to meet LvB. His music speaks to me highly deeply.

So now I get used to be a beethovenian knowing nearly nobody interested in any classical music in my live surroundings (though I know there are somewhere such people). Your to LvB devoted "self-help group" seems to be the only place for me to share the feeling with. I like your discussions and Peter’s web site and thus ´d like to thank you that you are.

I’ve encountered interesting issue: Was really Beethoven in his late lifetime enlightened? Did he achieve a higher state of consciousness? I’ve read about his last quartets but haven’t listened to them yet (have to prepare myself for that). Did he "transcend the opposites", the two principles and get reconciliation? Am confused in that. Any help will be well appreciated.

Hope you’ll understand my English, greetings to all. Alice

[Pastorali]

Originally posted by Aeurnoid:
I come from the darkness of "lurking" as I finally shed some light upon LvB, his music and individuality and also upon this adoration-site.

I broke my total ignorance of the classical music when I was 22 (2 years ago) and see that as a necessary musical and spiritual development of me. Then, it was a fate to meet LvB. His music speaks to me highly deeply.

So now I get used to be a beethovenian knowing nearly nobody interested in any classical music in my live surroundings (though I know there are somewhere such people). Your to LvB devoted "self-help group" seems to be the only place for me to share the feeling with. I like your discussions and Peter’s web site and thus ´d like to thank you that you are.

I’ve encountered interesting issue: Was really Beethoven in his late lifetime enlightened? Did he achieve a higher state of consciousness? I’ve read about his last quartets but haven’t listened to them yet (have to prepare myself for that). Did he "transcend the opposites", the two principles and get reconciliation? Am confused in that. Any help will be well appreciated.

Hope you’ll understand my English, greetings to all. Alice

Welcome Alice!
Fine, you ended your lurking!
'Entlightened' sounds to me a bit too religious. In my eyes, Beethoven was a very extraordinary person with an outstanding gift – a genius! But he had his feet on the ground, maybe his music was and is enlightened?

Let's find the dawn, I love it!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Pastorali:
Welcome Alice!
Fine, you ended your lurking!
'Entlightened' sounds to me a bit too religious. In my eyes, Beethoven was a very extraordinary person with an outstanding gift – a genius! But he had his feet on the ground, maybe his music was and is enlightened?

Let's find the dawn, I love it!

Well Beethoven was a man well aware of the spiritual dimention, though not conventionally religious. I don't think he let himself be confined in this respect to religious doctrine, hence his 'Enlightened' element combined with the spiritual.

With regard to the late music he has been referred to as a 'seer', not a word one often associates with composers, in fact apart from this I've only ever read this word used in conjunction with Handel's late works (and no personal bias here!). I'd be interested to know if there are other composers to be added in the list.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited March 29, 2004).]

[Pastorali]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well Beethoven was a man well aware of the spiritual dimention, though not conventionally religious. I don't think he let himself be confined in this respect to religious doctrine, hence his 'Enlightened' element combined with the spiritual.

With regard to the late music he has been referred to as a 'seer', not a word one often associates with composers, in fact apart from this I've only ever read this word used in conjunction with Handel's late works (and no personal bias here!). I'd be interested to know if there are other composers to be added in the list.

Maybe the three B's? or rather HBMB.

I think there is a thin line between religious and spiritual. I also think he was well aware of the spiritual dimention. I can't imagine myself, he would been able to produce such wonderful music without. I guess this is every artist's inner source, where he gets his inspirations. I think about Brahms, wich something said like: "I just have the inspiration and the rest is hard work."
I think it is remarkable, that Beethoven spent so much energy into the Missa Solemnis. He worked four years, or even more on this Opus and came sometimes almost 'half-crazy' about it. What was the reason, he had to do this work in every case?

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well Beethoven was a man well aware of the spiritual dimention, though not conventionally religious. I don't think he let himself be confined in this respect to religious doctrine, hence his 'Enlightened' element combined with the spiritual.

With regard to the late music he has been referred to as a 'seer', not a word one often associates with composers, in fact apart from this I've only ever read this word used in conjunction with Handel's late works (and no personal bias here!). I'd be interested to know if there are other composers to be added in the list.

In my experience, as well as Beethoven's late quartets, Bach reached a new spiritual plane in the Musical Offering, expecially in the final fugue; Wagner in Parsifal; Strauss in the Four Last Songs.

In art, Rembrandt's last paintings, especially the self-portraits and 'The Jewish Bride'.

In all these works, a spirtuality radiates outward which marks a new plateau for the artist. Finally acceptance of life with all its joys and sorrows seems to bring the soul to a place beyond struggle where there is spiritual serenity.


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited March 29, 2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
In my experience, as well as Beethoven's late quartets, Bach reached a new spiritual plane in the Musical Offering, expecially in the final fugue; Wagner in Parsifal; Strauss in the Four Last Songs.

But I was asking whether anyone had READ anywhere the use of the word 'seer' or something to that effect with regard to a composer other than those I mentioned.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited March 29, 2004).]

[v russo]

Originally posted by Rod:
But I was asking whether anyone had READ anywhere the use of the word 'seer' or something to that effect with regard to a composer other than those I mentioned.

What about Haydn's late Quartets and Symphonies? That music was definetly the blue-print that Beethoven took while carving out his own late masterpieces. Haydn's late quartet's play with tradional forms and have a more direct and profound emotional quality. This music hints at Beethoven works, Romanticism and beyond...



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v russo

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Aeurnoid:
I come from the darkness of "lurking" as I finally shed some light upon LvB, his music and individuality and also upon this adoration-site.

I broke my total ignorance of the classical music when I was 22 (2 years ago) and see that as a necessary musical and spiritual development of me. Then, it was a fate to meet LvB. His music speaks to me highly deeply.

So now I get used to be a beethovenian knowing nearly nobody interested in any classical music in my live surroundings (though I know there are somewhere such people). Your to LvB devoted "self-help group" seems to be the only place for me to share the feeling with. I like your discussions and Peter’s web site and thus ´d like to thank you that you are.

I’ve encountered interesting issue: Was really Beethoven in his late lifetime enlightened? Did he achieve a higher state of consciousness? I’ve read about his last quartets but haven’t listened to them yet (have to prepare myself for that). Did he "transcend the opposites", the two principles and get reconciliation? Am confused in that. Any help will be well appreciated.

Hope you’ll understand my English, greetings to all. Alice

Yes, Beethoven was reconciling opposites and I think he was aiming for and achieved a higher state of being, particularly in his late string quartets.
I think is was Alfred Brendel who observed that in the late string and piano sonatas paradoxically, Beethoven was possessed by the most profound sense of stillness and silence that seems to point to some other and higher reality for mankind. These works are so unspeakably great that even today I am not sure we have got them in focus. We don't listen to these works, we become a part of them.




[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited March 29, 2004).]

[v russo]

Originally posted by Amalie:
Yes, Beethoven was reconciling opposites and I think he was aiming for and achieved a higher state of being, particularly in his late string quartets.
I think is was Alfred Brendel who observed that in the late string and piano sonatas paradoxically, Beethoven was possessed by the most profound sense of stillness and silence that seems to point to some other


and higher reality for mankind. These works are so unspeakably great that even today I am not sure we have got them in focus. We don't listen to these works, we become a part of them.


[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited March 29, 2004).]

BEAUTIFULLY PUT AMALIE!!



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v russo

[Aeurnoid]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by v russo:
[B] BEAUTIFULLY PUT AMALIE!!


Mysterious man!
He was also studying some Indic philosophy, but I'm not sure if it could be somehow related to his spiritual achievement; he seems to be the real "west" man, full of energy to resist his “fate”, which was probably one of the sources that he finally reached for a new state of being.

[Pastorali]

Originally posted by Rod:
But I was asking whether anyone had READ anywhere the use of the word 'seer' or something to that effect with regard to a composer other than those I mentioned.

SEER! The only person, which I do know and I really think this term fits is:

HILDEGARD VON BINGEN

She was a real seeress in many ways!

[v russo]

Originally posted by Pastorali:
SEER! The only person, which I do know and I really think this term fits is:

HILDEGARD VON BINGEN

She was a real seeress in many ways!

Von Bingen's music is quite wonderful; and such prolific output.

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v russo

[This message has been edited by v russo (edited April 01, 2004).]