Beethovens 5th Piano Concerto

[Peter]

Originally posted by v russo:

Thanks for the support, I was getting ganged up there for a while for expressing my views on this concerto. I think Beethoven was always heartfelt, but was cautious and subtley introduced new ideas in the manner you described. Thats why a radical work like the Op. 95 quartet was said to have been for "private gatherings" only. Beethoven was cautious of his career and did not want to "shock" his audencies too much. Your example of the 3rd symphony is excellent! But, on occasion, I believe he did succumb to financial, social or critical pressures and did compose in a more "safe" manner (ex. the 5th concerto and the replacement movement to the Grosse Fuge). Anyone who knows music and more importantly Beethovens music, can not tell me truthfully that this concerto fits in with B's compositional agenda; both in the sense of personal growth and time period. That is just a plain un-truth.

It isn't a question of ganging up! I simply find your arguments odd - on the one hand you accuse Beethoven of having written a 'courtly' concerto that looks back rather than forward, then you say it influenced the Romantic composers which it did - opening with a cadenza is a foreshadowing of Brahms, not an imitation of Mozart. Its sheer drama, power and grandeur with moments such as that incredible double octave passage in the development where the piano angrily challenges the orchestra would have shocked all those dozing courtly powdered wigs!

I think your points are more relevant to Op.19.




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'Man know thyself'

[v russo]

Originally posted by Rod:
I suggest those who know Beethoven's music would say, if anything, it is Number 4 is the odd one out, so to speak, with regard to the 'compositional agenda'. Beethoven wrote nothing like this piece before or after, it has some highly unusual features in this regard.

What do you make of Beethovens decision to replace the andante (..favori) of the Waldstein with the current movement?

many I know regard the 4th to be thier favorite concerto. I dont know what else to say, this is how I feel about the subject. The 4th the "odd one out"??? Those are 3 perfect movements; with a 2nd movement for the ages!! I cant see how anyone could say that.



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v russo

[v russo]

Originally posted by Peter:

It isn't a question of ganging up! I simply find your arguments odd - on the one hand you accuse Beethoven of having written a 'courtly' concerto that looks back rather than forward, then you say it influenced the Romantic composers which it did - opening with a cadenza is a foreshadowing of Brahms, not an imitation of Mozart. Its sheer drama, power and grandeur with moments such as that incredible double octave passage in the development where the piano angrily challenges the orchestra would have shocked all those dozing courtly powdered wigs!

I think your points are more relevant to Op.19.

Peter, then we agree to disagree I guess. I dont care about double octaves, or keys or even car keys for that matter.... the concerto has an overall (despite its grand gestures, expanded feel, beautiful slow movement ...etc) conservative feel to me; in the context of Beethovens compositional development. I do not know what else to say here...

I am viewing this not as a pianist (like yourself) or a composer (like myself) but what my ears and head tell me more than anything else- as a regular person with an appreciation for music, and more importantly; an appreciation for Beethovens music.

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v russo

[This message has been edited by v russo (edited March 21, 2004).]

[Chaszz]

I said earlier in this thread, and I'd like to make the point again: I think Beethoven fluctuated between conservative and radical features, sometimes in the same work, sometimes in complete works, not necessarily with forethought but because ideas suggested themselves to him this way. Any artist is dependent on inspiration, on the muse, and cannot plan out specifically what he is going to do. Beethoven's sketchbooks show him wrestling with his ideas, but his ideas came into his head and were wrestled with afterwards, at least to some extent. Especially when one is breaking new territory, as he did, standing again on familiar ground for awhile can be an emotional necessity if one is to maintain equailibrium and not lose it all. The Eighth Symphony is of course a good example of this, and as we know he did not think less of it than the Seventh, but quite the opposite. So to sum up I think he went conservative regularly for his inner emotional needs, not necessarily because of his outer plans for his career. The radical departures might have been impossible without the regular conservative returns.

(I have a bit of a personal interest here, becuase this is how my own development as a painter works, not that I'm making any hint of comparison with B. other than in trying to describe a process. Inspiration is essential to continuing, cannot be planned or forced, and has its own hidden rules and needs dependent on our inner life, the muse, the deity or however one wants to ascribe it. The process also involves the history of one's art which is interwoven with creative growth in ways that can't be predicted. If one's path could be planned there would not be the struggle which there is.)



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited March 22, 2004).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
I suggest those who know Beethoven's music would say, if anything, it is Number 4 is the odd one out, so to speak, with regard to the 'compositional agenda'. Beethoven wrote nothing like this piece before or after, it has some highly unusual features in this regard.

What do you make of Beethovens decision to replace the andante (..favori) of the Waldstein with the current movement?

I see all of the concerti as being highly individual and hesitate to pair any together. The 1st and 2nd, for example, may have some stylistic similarities, however, the orchestration is quite different (no trumpets or timpani in the 2nd). That the 4th should be the "odd one out" doesn't work for me. Each one has it's own individual style (and I think I can include the non-piano concerti with that, too).

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
I see all of the concerti as being highly individual and hesitate to pair any together. The 1st and 2nd, for example, may have some stylistic similarities, however, the orchestration is quite different (no trumpets or timpani in the 2nd). That the 4th should be the "odd one out" doesn't work for me. Each one has it's own individual style (and I think I can include the non-piano concerti with that, too).

Well of course every Beethoven piece is unique, but certainly no 4 is especially unique in that the trumpets and timpani are reserved only for the finale, that there is a latent programme to this work (this has been argued convinicingly to my mind); and the lengthy rippling use of the upper register of the keyboard is pretty unique for Beethoven too.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited March 22, 2004).]

[v russo]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I said earlier in this thread, and I'd like to make the point again: I think Beethoven fluctuated between conservative and radical features, sometimes in the same work, sometimes in complete works, not necessarily with forethought but because ideas suggested themselves to him this way. Any artist is dependent on inspiration, on the muse, and cannot plan out specifically what he is going to do. Beethoven's sketchbooks show him wrestling with his ideas, but his ideas came into his head and were wrestled with afterwards, at least to some extent. Especially when one is breaking new territory, as he did, standing again on familiar ground for awhile can be an emotional necessity if one is to maintain equailibrium and not lose it all. The Eighth Symphony is of course a good example of this, and as we know he did not think less of it than the Seventh, but quite the opposite. So to sum up I think he went conservative regularly for his inner emotional needs, not necessarily because of his outer plans for his career. The radical departures might have been impossible without the regular conservative returns.

(I have a bit of a personal interest here, becuase this is how my own development as a painter works, not that I'm making any hint of comparison with B. other than in trying to describe a process. Inspiration is essential to continuing, cannot be planned or forced, and has its own hidden rules and needs dependent on our inner life, the muse, the deity or however one wants to ascribe it. The process also involves the history of one's art which is interwoven with creative growth in ways that can't be predicted. If one's path could be planned there would not be the struggle which there is.)

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited March 22, 2004).]

very well put Chaszz, I agree with you.



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v russo

[Rod]

Originally posted by v russo:
many I know regard the 4th to be thier favorite concerto. I dont know what else to say, this is how I feel about the subject. The 4th the "odd one out"??? Those are 3 perfect movements; with a 2nd movement for the ages!! I cant see how anyone could say that.

I mean odd in that it does not quite follow Beethoven's usual manner of composition at the time, not that it is an inferior piece, far from it. Nobody has written a better concerto that this (especially when you hear my recording of it on authentic instruments by Badura-Skoda!).



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[v russo]

Originally posted by Rod:
I mean odd in that it does not quite follow Beethoven's usual manner of composition at the time, not that it is an inferior piece, far from it. Nobody has written a better concerto that this (especially when you hear my recording of it on authentic instruments by Badura-Skoda!).

"usual manner of composition"??. I dont care about instrumentation, I am talking about overall form. You distinguish pieces by instrumentation (those are only notes on the page), I am talking about architecture, form and overall asthetics.

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v russo

[This message has been edited by v russo (edited March 23, 2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by v russo:
"usual manner of composition"??. I dont care about instrumentation, I am talking about overall form. You distinguish pieces by instrumentation (those are only notes on the page), I am talking about architecture, form and overall asthetics.

Ok then, the fourth is the only concerto whose first movement is not in Beethoven's bold rhetorial style, as I have said before the rippling treatment of the piano is also not typical of the others, the slow movement of the 4th is something really unique in music. How much more do I need to say?

This is why I say the 5th is more in line with the progression of Beethoven's concerto style than the 4th, which seems to go in a rather different direction. I am not making any value judgements on the artistic merit of these pieces, it is a bold man who can pass judgement on a Beethoven piece! The fact that you are making so much of no4 in particular says to me it must be somewhat different to you, whether you are aware of it or not.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[v russo]

Originally posted by Rod:
Ok then, the fourth is the only concerto whose first movement is not in Beethoven's bold rhetorial style, as I have said before the rippling treatment of the piano is also not typical of the others, the slow movement of the 4th is something really unique in music. How much more do I need to say?

This is why I say the 5th is more in line with the progression of Beethoven's concerto style than the 4th, which seems to go in a rather different direction. I am not making any value judgements on the artistic merit of these pieces, it is a bold man who can pass judgement on a Beethoven piece! The fact that you are making so much of no4 in particular says to me it must be somewhat different to you, whether you are aware of it or not.

remember Rod:
My point was overall compositional development not concerto development. The concerto as we have discussed here, is a conservative genre for the most part.

What you see as an a-typical first movement, I see as a "growth" from the middle period 3 rd concerto.



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v russo

[Peter]

Originally posted by v russo:
remember Rod:
My point was overall compositional development not concerto development. The concerto as we have discussed here, is a conservative genre for the most part.

What you see as an a-typical first movement, I see as a "growth" from the middle period 3 rd concerto.

The first movement of the 4th shows great Mozartian influence, not only in structure but in the soloist entries - the dramatic entry of the piano at the development is a virtual quote from Mozart's k503.

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'Man know thyself'

[v russo]

Originally posted by Peter:
The first movement of the 4th shows great Mozartian influence, not only in structure but in the soloist entries - the dramatic entry of the piano at the development is a virtual quote from Mozart's k503.

please Peter, were getting into semantics now. The breadth of that opening fiqure on the solo piano (which is a rare opening for a concerto) has nothing to do with Mozart. It lends itself toward Romanticism. Stop being so literal, ...composers have quoted from other composers in thier most significant and "modern" works since the dawn of music!

This is a stretch Peter..

Mozart (most of the time) was a slave to classical form, Beethoven was its great liberator.

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v russo

[This message has been edited by v russo (edited March 23, 2004).]

[benjamin]

my first love in classical music was the 5th piano concerto, as it was the 1st complete piece i listened to when i was introduced to classical music, i still havent gotten over the beauty, power, majesty and intensity of emotion in that piece. russo is more knowledgeable than me, but i am still overwhelmed by that first experience, 10 years later.

[benjamin]

correct me if i am wrong russo but the attack is almost savage , what did good old b do to deserve this?