Beethovens 5th Piano Concerto

[v russo]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think we can agree that 1814/15 represents the transition to the late works. Elements can be found in earlier works, I think the finale of the 8th symphony is an example which I know you also disagree with!

WHAT ABOUT THE OP.95 "QUARTET SERIOSO"!! THAT PIECE IS CERTAINLY MORE AKIN TO THE LATER PERIOD THAN THE MIDDLE. CRITICS AND SCHOLORS HAVE OFTEN SAID THIS AS WELL...



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v russo

[v russo]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
Here is a quote that might be pertinent:

"...the monumental figures like Beethoven and Brahms almost always come off second best as concerto writers, perhaps because their native sensibilities balk at pampering the absurd conventions of the concerto structure: the orchestral pre-exposition setup, to titllate the listener's expectation of a grand dramatic entrance for the soloist; the tiresomely repetitive thematic structure, arranged to let the soloist prove that he really can turn that phrase to a more rakish tilt than the fellow on first clarinet who just announced it, and above all the outdated aristocracy of cadenza writing--the posturing trills and arpeggios, all twitteringly superfluous to the fundamental thematic propostion. All these have helped to build a concerto tradition which has provided some of the most embarrassing examples of the primeval human need for showing off."

Many will not agree with this quote by one of the great pianists of the twentieth century, but maybe we should acknowledge the difference between the very "public" concerto and the more intimate solo piano sonata and string quartet. Perhaps Beethoven felt more comfortable making the transition to his late period with sonatas then he did with the concerto.

Brilliant sir. Exactly! There has always been classical works for the public space and for intimate gatherings. Most composers wrote accordingly to these standards, whether we like to admit this or not!

..There you go Peter! ...Ha!!


urtextmeister:
who made this brilliant quote?


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v russo

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
Here is a quote that might be pertinent:

"...the monumental figures like Beethoven and Brahms almost always come off second best as concerto writers, perhaps because their native sensibilities balk at pampering the absurd conventions of the concerto structure: the orchestral pre-exposition setup, to titllate the listener's expectation of a grand dramatic entrance for the soloist; the tiresomely repetitive thematic structure, arranged to let the soloist prove that he really can turn that phrase to a more rakish tilt than the fellow on first clarinet who just announced it, and above all the outdated aristocracy of cadenza writing--the posturing trills and arpeggios, all twitteringly superfluous to the fundamental thematic propostion. All these have helped to build a concerto tradition which has provided some of the most embarrassing examples of the primeval human need for showing off."

A very fine statement, but with one little problem: the fact that Beethoven's concertos are much too great to be called second best makes the bottom fall right out of it.

[Peter]

Originally posted by v russo:
WHAT ABOUT THE OP.95 "QUARTET SERIOSO"!! THAT PIECE IS CERTAINLY MORE AKIN TO THE LATER PERIOD THAN THE MIDDLE. CRITICS AND SCHOLORS HAVE OFTEN SAID THIS AS WELL...

You are obviously trying to make a point! Op.95 was written a year AFTER the Emperor and represents the summit of the middle works in my view. I believe Beethoven revised the work a few years later before publication and indeed it does point forward to the last quartets. He actually did not intend the work for public performance as he considered it too sophisticated for most people ofthe day!

The quartet medium intended for small intimate audiences is not a suitable comparison to make with a concerto designed to show off a soloist in a large concert hall. Beethoven's stylistic advances are generally evident first in works such as sonatas and quartets rather than symphonies and concertos.



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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by v russo:
Brilliant sir. Exactly! There has always been classical works for the public space and for intimate gatherings. Most composers wrote accordingly to these standards, whether we like to admit this or not!

..There you go Peter! ...Ha!!


urtextmeister:
who made this brilliant quote?

Well I don't know where you think I'm going, except to have a haircut in a moment! How does this relate to your points about the Emperor as it is aimed at all classical concertos?


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'Man know thyself'

[urtextmeister]

The aforementioned quote was by Glenn Gould. I do not agree with every thing he said, nor do I like all of the many recordings he made, but I do believe he had a brilliant musical mind. He certainly had a way with words.

Does a composer, Beethoven included, save his or her best stuff for intimate setting such as chamber music and write the "safe," sure-hit stuff for concertos? Consider the circumstances of the violin concerto. There was apparently a danger of the soloist playing the piece with his fiddle upside-down, just to show off. Would Beethoven be a little cautious about writing his deepest, most subtle material under such circumstances?

I have had similar discussions of about theater music. In particular, ballet scores by someone like Tchaikowsky. Can a composer do his best work when a dancer is cutting and pasting the score according to her bunions on that particular day?
\

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:


The quartet medium intended for small intimate audiences is not a suitable comparison to make with a concerto designed to show off a soloist in a large concert hall. Beethoven's stylistic advances are generally evident first in works such as sonatas and quartets rather than symphonies and concertos.

This general point has been made often before, for public works there is far less scope for experimentation and Beethoven was enough of a realist to understand that.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[v russo]

Originally posted by Peter:

You are obviously trying to make a point! Op.95 was written a year AFTER the Emperor and represents the summit of the middle works in my view. I believe Beethoven revised the work a few years later before publication and indeed it does point forward to the last quartets. He actually did not intend the work for public performance as he considered it too sophisticated for most people ofthe day!

The quartet medium intended for small intimate audiences is not a suitable comparison to make with a concerto designed to show off a soloist in a large concert hall. Beethoven's stylistic advances are generally evident first in works such as sonatas and quartets rather than symphonies and concertos.

I still think the idea of music for the public space and music for the intimate space applies to both sides of this argument, for you and for me.

...we'll leave it at that.
8)



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v russo

[v russo]

Originally posted by Peter:

Well I don't know where you think I'm going, except to have a haircut in a moment! How does this relate to your points about the Emperor as it is aimed at all classical concertos?

It relates in the sense that composers will sometimes compromise thier compositional agenda to please a public, in a public work ...like a concerto.



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v russo

[v russo]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
The aforementioned quote was by Glenn Gould. I do not agree with every thing he said, nor do I like all of the many recordings he made, but I do believe he had a brilliant musical mind. He certainly had a way with words.

Does a composer, Beethoven included, save his or her best stuff for intimate setting such as chamber music and write the "safe," sure-hit stuff for concertos? Consider the circumstances of the violin concerto. There was apparently a danger of the soloist playing the piece with his fiddle upside-down, just to show off. Would Beethoven be a little cautious about writing his deepest, most subtle material under such circumstances?

I have had similar discussions of about theater music. In particular, ballet scores by someone like Tchaikowsky. Can a composer do his best work when a dancer is cutting and pasting the score according to her bunions on that particular day?
\

I love Gould, thank you for that. I agree with this quote whole heartedly.



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v russo

[Sorrano]

Does a composer, Beethoven included, save his or her best stuff for intimate setting such as chamber music and write the "safe," sure-hit stuff for concertos? Consider the circumstances of the violin concerto. There was apparently a danger of the soloist playing the piece with his fiddle upside-down, just to show off. Would Beethoven be a little cautious about writing his deepest, most subtle material under such circumstances?

[/B]

The musicologist that taught my music history class many years ago spoke once of how Beethoven, in his most radical works of the time, used "new" things and "old" things in the same work so that the public didn't get too much of a new thing and have nothing to listen to that was familiar enough to keep them out of sorts with the work. An example, the Eroica's first two movements were quite radical for the time--the length and development of the materials and the gravity of the movements were enough to displace anyone's comfort zone at that time. Beethoven balances that with the lighter final two movements in forms that at least had some familiarity (especially the last--the theme and variations) that the public could grasp and enjoy. The finale of the 9th contains elements (such as the Turkish march) that help ease the transition from old to new. (I hope that's a clear enough explanation--sometimes my words don't come out the way I think they are first thing in the morning.)

[v russo]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
The musicologist that taught my music history class many years ago spoke once of how Beethoven, in his most radical works of the time, used "new" things and "old" things in the same work so that the public didn't get too much of a new thing and have nothing to listen to that was familiar enough to keep them out of sorts with the work. An example, the Eroica's first two movements were quite radical for the time--the length and development of the materials and the gravity of the movements were enough to displace anyone's comfort zone at that time. Beethoven balances that with the lighter final two movements in forms that at least had some familiarity (especially the last--the theme and variations) that the public could grasp and enjoy. The finale of the 9th contains elements (such as the Turkish march) that help ease the transition from old to new. (I hope that's a clear enough explanation--sometimes my words don't come out the way I think they are first thing in the morning.)

I see your point, well put.



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v russo

[urtextmeister]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
The musicologist that taught my music history class many years ago spoke once of how Beethoven, in his most radical works of the time, used "new" things and "old" things in the same work so that the public didn't get too much of a new thing and have nothing to listen to that was familiar enough to keep them out of sorts with the work. An example, the Eroica's first two movements were quite radical for the time--the length and development of the materials and the gravity of the movements were enough to displace anyone's comfort zone at that time. Beethoven balances that with the lighter final two movements in forms that at least had some familiarity (especially the last--the theme and variations) that the public could grasp and enjoy. The finale of the 9th contains elements (such as the Turkish march) that help ease the transition from old to new. (I hope that's a clear enough explanation--sometimes my words don't come out the way I think they are first thing in the morning.)

I think there is a lot of truth to what you say. But here is the big question:

How much irony can one find in Beethoven?

It is clear in later composers such as Mahler and Shostakovitch (you want happy peasant music, I'll give you happy peasant music, you #$@%$%^!) but I don't think it is always clear in Beethoven what is heartfelt and what is ironic.

[v russo]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
I think there is a lot of truth to what you say. But here is the big question:

How much irony can one find in Beethoven?

It is clear in later composers such as Mahler and Shostakovitch (you want happy peasant music, I'll give you happy peasant music, you #$@%$%^!) but I don't think it is always clear in Beethoven what is heartfelt and what is ironic.

Thanks for the support, I was getting ganged up there for a while for expressing my views on this concerto. I think Beethoven was always heartfelt, but was cautious and subtley introduced new ideas in the manner you described. Thats why a radical work like the Op. 95 quartet was said to have been for "private gatherings" only. Beethoven was cautious of his career and did not want to "shock" his audencies too much. Your example of the 3rd symphony is excellent! But, on occasion, I believe he did succumb to financial, social or critical pressures and did compose in a more "safe" manner (ex. the 5th concerto and the replacement movement to the Grosse Fuge). Anyone who knows music and more importantly Beethovens music, can not tell me truthfully that this concerto fits in with B's compositional agenda; both in the sense of personal growth and time period. That is just a plain un-truth.

Yes, the 20th century composers were more ironic and subversive, (Shostakovich and Mahler...etc) but, B was too forthright, positive and optimistic to be any one of those things. His time was a time of revolution and change. The 20th century composers were a time of cultural regression, industrial boom and political repression...


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v russo

[This message has been edited by v russo (edited March 21, 2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by v russo:

Thanks for the support, I was getting ganged up there for a while for expressing my views on this concerto. I think Beethoven was always heartfelt, but was cautious and subtley introduced new ideas in the manner you described. Thats why a radical work like the Op. 95 quartet was said to have been for "private gatherings" only. Beethoven was cautious of his career and did not want to "shock" his audencies too much. Your example of the 3rd symphony is excellent! But, on occasion, I believe he did succumb to financial, social or critical pressures and did compose in a more "safe" manner (ex. the 5th concerto and the replacement movement to the Grosse Fuge). Anyone who knows music and more importantly Beethovens music, can not tell me truthfully that this concerto fits in with B's compositional agenda; both in the sense of personal growth and time period. That is just a plain un-truth.

Yes, the 20th century composers were more ironic and subversive, (Shostakovich and Mahler...etc) but, B was too forthright, positive and optimistic to be any one of those things. His time was a time of revolution and change. The 20th century composers were a time of cultural regression, industrial boom and political repression...

I suggest those who know Beethoven's music would say, if anything, it is Number 4 is the odd one out, so to speak, with regard to the 'compositional agenda'. Beethoven wrote nothing like this piece before or after, it has some highly unusual features in this regard.

What do you make of Beethovens decision to replace the andante (..favori) of the Waldstein with the current movement?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin