"Bach, Beethoven, Brahms"

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
Brahms composed a large quantity of consistently wonderful music. I think he deserves (deserved) to be one of the three B's. I don't think you hear about the three B's so much anymore.
Trying to put aside stylistic differences, it seems to me that Brahms is the odd man out because of his sentimentality. He wore his heart on his sleeve more often than the other two.
Interesting that both Beethoven and Brahms seem to resort to fugue writing to express their deepest intentions.

I don't think, however, that fugal writing makes someone a neo-baroque composer. It is a compositional process that seems to always be with us.

I don't care much for Paul McCartney's "classical music." Has anyone heard Billy Joel's recording of "classical music" for piano. It is like someone discovered a cache of music by some justly neglected 19th century Russian composer. What is the point! Why do pop musicians think they write "classical music." Apparently they have the luxury of ignoring a hundred years of musical trends and upheavals.

I thought the connected medley on side two of "Abbey Road" was a pretty good piece of extended music, to avoid using the word 'classical'. But pretty well constructed. Of course, I don't know who was more responsible for it, the producer George Martin or the Beatles. But it does make me wonder what they would have gotten into had they not broken up shortly after that.

[spaceray]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:

I don't care much for Paul McCartney's "classical music." Has anyone heard Billy Joel's recording of "classical music" for piano. It is like someone discovered a cache of music by some justly neglected 19th century Russian composer. What is the point! Why do pop musicians think they write "classical music." Apparently they have the luxury of ignoring a hundred years of musical trends and upheavals.

I think the Billy Joel book came out a couple of years ago and I watched an interview of him on "Breakfast with the Arts" at that time.Billy said he wrote these "Etudes" as a tribute to learning to play the piano and to read music.He loved and hated the piano and learning to play it and read music.He said he wished that he had pieces like these to play when he was young.
This was all the rage last summer,here at the conservatory ,every 10 to 17 yr old had a copy. I don't have a copy of this but I imagine they would be too difficult for me to play(I am an awful player and there is no hope that anything I played would remotely resemble the composers intentions)Have you seen them Urtexmiester?I think Chris might have mentioned that he knew them but he didn't say if he thought they were any good or not.I don't object to this sort of thing,if it gets students interested in music.I don't think Mr Joel is going about giving concerts of them ,I might be wrong.
Muriel

[urtextmeister]

I don't think Billy Joel CAN play the music he wrote for piano. I'm not saying that as an insult. I think he has developed a style of playing that gets him through the pop music that he usually performs. The Etudes that he wrote require a strong classical technique. That is why they hire an excellent classical pianist to record them.

I actually kind of like the music. What bothers me is that, had anyone else composed this 19th century fluff, they would have been laughed at. You could never publish or record this throwback music unless you're a celebrity trying to do something different for a change.

[spaceray]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
I don't think Billy Joel CAN play the music he wrote for piano. I'm not saying that as an insult. I think he has developed a style of playing that gets him through the pop music that he usually performs. The Etudes that he wrote require a strong classical technique. That is why they hire an excellent classical pianist to record them.

I actually kind of like the music. What bothers me is that, had anyone else composed this 19th century fluff, they would have been laughed at. You could never publish or record this throwback music unless you're a celebrity trying to do something different for a change.

Urtextmiester,
So you can't accept Mr Joel's "Etudes' simply as more music for pianists to try?
Billy played two selections from the book without difficulty in the interview ,so you might be wrong about him not being able to play them.As for the recording do you think perhaps he preferred another pianist to record them just so he would not be accused of riding the gravy train.
If being a famous pop musician gets you through the door of the music publisher then why in heaven's name not use every advantage you have available.Getting your compossitions published is tough.It sounds to me as though you are laughing at BJ's "19th fluff" precisely
because of his pop status.
It is a popular book,all the piano students have bought it.So what wrong with that?
Mr Joel is not, as I mentioned before,trying to present this music at Lincoln Centre or the Albert Hall.I still don't understand what your problem is with this.
Muriel

[v russo]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Urtextmiester,
So you can't accept Mr Joel's "Etudes' simply as more music for pianists to try?
Billy played two selections from the book without difficulty in the interview ,so you might be wrong about him not being able to play them.As for the recording do you think perhaps he preferred another pianist to record them just so he would not be accused of riding the gravy train.
If being a famous pop musician gets you through the door of the music publisher then why in heaven's name not use every advantage you have available.Getting your compossitions published is tough.It sounds to me as though you are laughing at BJ's "19th fluff" precisely
because of his pop status.
It is a popular book,all the piano students have bought it.So what wrong with that?
Mr Joel is not, as I mentioned before,trying to present this music at Lincoln Centre or the Albert Hall.I still don't understand what your problem is with this.
Muriel

Joel's piano works are 19th century novelty music; well done but novelty music non-the-less. I was impressed that a pop rock star could write in that breadth though. Good for him. You must admit, his pop music is some of the best to come down the pike in the last 30 years or so.

Sorry, I'm partial.... he and I come from the same turf.




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v russo

[v russo]

Has anyone heard Billy Joel's recording of "classical music" for piano. It is like someone discovered a cache of music by some justly neglected 19th century Russian composer. What is the point! Why do pop musicians think they write "classical music." Apparently they have the luxury of ignoring a hundred years of musical trends and upheavals.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Well put, a very valid point once again sir...

I thought the same thing when I first heard this stuff.

V<<


[This message has been edited by v russo (edited March 25, 2004).]

[urtextmeister]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Urtextmiester,
So you can't accept Mr Joel's "Etudes' simply as more music for pianists to try?
Billy played two selections from the book without difficulty in the interview ,so you might be wrong about him not being able to play them.As for the recording do you think perhaps he preferred another pianist to record them just so he would not be accused of riding the gravy train.
If being a famous pop musician gets you through the door of the music publisher then why in heaven's name not use every advantage you have available.Getting your compossitions published is tough.It sounds to me as though you are laughing at BJ's "19th fluff" precisely
because of his pop status.
It is a popular book,all the piano students have bought it.So what wrong with that?
Mr Joel is not, as I mentioned before,trying to present this music at Lincoln Centre or the Albert Hall.I still don't understand what your problem is with this.
Muriel

Muriel,

To some degree, I think you are right. Maybe it is a case of sour grapes with me. Maybe I am holding his celebrity status against him and not judging him fairly.

As for his ability to play his own etudes: he probably worked them out at the keyboard and can play them to some degree. I would be shocked, however, if he could play them with the polish of a classical pianist.
A friend of mine who is big in the jazz piano world, told me there are only two people who can play jazz piano and classical piano well.
I was skeptical. I thought for a moment. "How about Andre Previn?" I said. "He's one of the two," he said.
I never found out who the other was. Anyway, I think a pop or blues pianist who can play the classics well would be too much to expect. But, it is possible.

A great collection of piano etudes that came out within the last twenty years was "12 new etudes" by William Bolcom--amazing pieces! I believe they won the pulitzer prize or something like that. Are these as well known?

I actually like Billy Joel's songs. I would love to see the stage show playing right now. I love Twyla Tharp as well. I see his whole classical project as I see Madonna writing children's books or Ivana Trump writing mystery novels. Or William Shatner making a recording of torch songs. It doesn't seem quite right.

[Gurn Blanston]

I am not being an apologist for B.J., although I do like his pop music, or did when I listened to such, but he wrote the introduction to one of the first books on CM that I bought, and in it he said that he learned to play the piano from his earliest times playing only CM, was in fact exclusively a classical pianist for several years, and turned to pop after college as a way to make a living, but he still listened to and loved CM, and wouldn't recommend anyone to try to learn the piano any other way. This was written in the early 1990's. So I expect that this is merely a return to roots, as it were. I agree, I would like to see that Broadway show too, also would have really liked to see that show he toured with Elton John, another pretty fair pianist for a rocker!


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by urtextmeister:
[B]

A friend of mine who is big in the jazz piano world, told me there are only two people who can play jazz piano and classical piano well.
I was skeptical. I thought for a moment. "How about Andre Previn?" I said. "He's one of the two," he said.
I never found out who the other was. Anyway, I think a pop or blues pianist who can play the classics well would be too much to expect. But, it is possible.


Urtextmiester,
Only "two" pianists who can play jazz and classical well?I don't want to keep arguing
with you but this is such an absurd statement I can't let it pass without comment.Musicians will play all kinds of music,a brilliant young pianist here at the conservatory will play fabulously well in ANY style,he also plays guitar in a punk band ,one of the amazingly talented basses in The Vancouver Bach Choir has made his living as a country singer.
You can't say only two pianists are good at two styles ,it's just like saying there are only two great composers ,Beethoven and Handel.Ridiculous.
Muriel

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by spaceray:
[B You can't say only two pianists are good at two styles ,it's just like saying there are only two great composers ,Beethoven and Handel.Ridiculous.
Muriel[/B]

Indeed. Who would ever say such a thing?

[Chaszz]

The great jazz pianist, singer and composer Fats Waller was classically trained also, and gave classical organ recitals.

There's also Keith Jarrett, a present day musician who started out in jazz and now plays improvised solo concerts without predetermined structure. I have heard very little of him, but I heard a classical-sounding theme and variations about two weeks ago that I thought was very moving.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited March 26, 2004).]

[urtextmeister]

[quote]Originally posted by spaceray:
[b]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:


A friend of mine who is big in the jazz piano world, told me there are only two people who can play jazz piano and classical piano well.
I was skeptical. I thought for a moment. "How about Andre Previn?" I said. "He's one of the two," he said.
I never found out who the other was. Anyway, I think a pop or blues pianist who can play the classics well would be too much to expect. But, it is possible.


Urtextmiester,
Only "two" pianists who can play jazz and classical well?I don't want to keep arguing
with you but this is such an absurd statement I can't let it pass without comment.Musicians will play all kinds of music,a brilliant young pianist here at the conservatory will play fabulously well in ANY style,he also plays guitar in a punk band ,one of the amazingly talented basses in The Vancouver Bach Choir has made his living as a country singer.
You can't say only two pianists are good at two styles ,it's just like saying there are only two great composers ,Beethoven and Handel.Ridiculous.
Muriel

I never imagined I would be compared to Rod. Never in my wildest dreams.

I do not agree with my friend who made the statement about Jazz/classical pianists. We were discussing a student (I also work at a sort of conservatory) who is a very talented jazz pianist/composer. His classical teacher encouraged him to enter the concerto contest with the Bartok 3rd. His jazz teacher thought it was a waste of time. He then went on to make the remark about jazz/classical pianists.

I am a big believer in cross discipline. I think learning in almost any field will carry over to your "main" field. I took jazz piano lessons for a short time and it helped my immensely with my general understanding of music. I know many people who ARE versatile, who can be successful in both classical and other styles. There are relatively few people are who top of their field in both jazz and classical, however.

I think it is similar to dance. Ballet is the foundation of dance and most dancers have some training in it. You won't find many jazz/tap dancers, however, who will step into Swan Lake at a moment's notice. Classical ballet like classical piano needs constant practice and tending to (at least for most of us).

I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong impression, Muriel. I was merely quoting to make a point. I am not usually inflexible and dogmatic. I'll leave that up to Rod. JUST KIDDING.