Half-Crazy

[laura Childers]

Lately I have become fascinated with many of the classical composers of the 1800's and 1900's, particularly Beethoven and Chopin. It is so interesting to study a genius, because they are often half crazy. Why do you think that is? Do you believe that Beethoven was half crazy?

[This message has been edited by laura Childers (edited March 22, 2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by laura Childers:
Lately I have become fascinated with many of the classical composers of the 1800's and 1900's, particularly Beethoven and Chopin. It is so interesting to study a genius, because they are often half crazy. Why do you think that is? Do you believe that Beethoven was half crazy?

[This message has been edited by laura Childers (edited March 22, 2004).]

I have been told I'm a little more than just half crazy, does that make me a double genuis!!?


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Amalie]

Originally posted by laura Childers:
Lately I have become fascinated with many of the classical composers of the 1800's and 1900's, particularly Beethoven and Chopin. It is so interesting to study a genius, because they are often half crazy. Why do you think that is? Do you believe that Beethoven was half crazy?

[This message has been edited by laura Childers (edited March 22, 2004).]

***********

Far be it from me to say but, surely the question of what or whom is sane and who or what is not, is entirely relative.
If Beethoven was a 'madman' then give us more insanity - that's what I say, if it produces a fraction of Beethoven's stupendous output. Are people in the Western world very sane who seem to spend most of their time watching trash on the television which is only destroying their minds and not enobling it?.
Beethoven certainly would have been appalled and surely he would be looking at things in a more rational perspective, when there is so much brilliant stuff around, the mystery is why people want to wallow in rubbish. I suspect Beethoven was saner that any of us! and he looked at the universe and man in an uplifting fashion.
Beethoven was saner than anybody, I can assure you that.
If you want to call it eccentricity, then Haydn was eccentric with all the practical jokes he played on people and Mozart similarly. Wagner like Beethoven seemed to have lived in a world of his own, and Sibelius in the last 25 years of his life went to live on his own in a hut in the middle of the Forests of Finland to be closer to nature and the inspiration for his work. Crazy? I don't think so.
They had a keener sense of a deeper reality than we have, entirely taken up as we are with superficial and passing interests.

Thank God for the legacy that these great geniuses have left us, when one looks around at the mess of the modern world that so called 'sane' people have produced.

With respect, in any event, I do think it is very silly to talk about conceptions of madness in connection with great artistic achievements. There are people who are in institutions sadly whom we regard as 'mad' and a danger to the public and themselves, who have not produced anything comparable artistically and whom it is really quite offensive to compare Beethoven with, who was at once both one of the greatest geniuses that ever lived and also a great friend and benefactor of the whole of mankind.



[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited March 22, 2004).]

[Pastorali]

No!

Madness is a perfectly rational adjustment to a crazy world. (...)

[This message has been edited by Pastorali (edited March 22, 2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Amalie:
***********

Far be it from me to say but, surely the question of what or whom is sane and who or what is not, is entirely relative.
If Beethoven was a 'madman' then give us more insanity - that's what I say, if it produces a fraction of Beethoven's stupendous output. Are people in the Western world very sane who seem to spend most of their time watching trash on the television which is only destroying their minds and not enobling it?.
Beethoven certainly would have been appalled and surely he would be looking at things in a more rational perspective, when there is so much brilliant stuff around, the mystery is why people want to wallow in rubbish. I suspect Beethoven was saner that any of us! and he looked at the universe and man in an uplifting fashion.
Beethoven was saner than anybody, I can assure you that.
If you want to call it eccentricity, then Haydn was eccentric with all the practical jokes he played on people and Mozart similarly. Wagner like Beethoven seemed to have lived in a world of his own, and Sibelius in the last 25 years of his life went to live on his own in a hut in the middle of the Forests of Finland to be closer to nature and the inspiration for his work. Crazy? I don't think so.
They had a keener sense of a deeper reality than we have, entirely taken up as we are with superficial and passing interests.

Thank God for the legacy that these great geniuses have left us, when one looks around at the mess of the modern world that so called 'sane' people have produced.

With respect, in any event, I do think it is very silly to talk about conceptions of madness in connection with great artistic achievements. There are people who are in institutions sadly whom we regard as 'mad' and a danger to the public and themselves, who have not produced anything comparable artistically and whom it is really quite offensive to compare Beethoven with, who was at once both one of the greatest geniuses that ever lived and also a great friend and benefactor of the whole of mankind.

Incredibly well put!

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by laura Childers:
Lately I have become fascinated with many of the classical composers of the 1800's and 1900's, particularly Beethoven and Chopin. It is so interesting to study a genius, because they are often half crazy. Why do you think that is? Do you believe that Beethoven was half crazy?

[This message has been edited by laura Childers (edited March 22, 2004).]

Eccentricity is a common trait amongst very gifted people (that doesn't mean all eccentrics are gifted). It is generally willfully misunderstood by "normal" people -fear, ignorance and probably jealousy being the underlying motives. Yes Beethoven was accused of being bonkers by plenty of people, mainly his critics who failed to appreciate his music - posterity has revealed the critics to be wrong. Beethoven was certainly eccentric, but not mad.

Two composers who did lose their sanity were Schumann and Hugo Wolf, but neither produced any music of worth once their mental capabilties were impaired.

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'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Van Gogh is perhaps the outstanding example of a mentally ill genius who produced great art of the highest order. However, arguably, his art was greater when he was less in the grip of his mental illness than more in its grip, though he did produce great art at both times.

In his case there is some possibility that his illness did help him penetrate thru the surface layers of reality to the inner, especially in his uncanny ability to convincingly portray the concept and feeling of infinity even in the space around a sprig of flowers, or around the head in a self-portrait.

However, as Peter says, artists not mentally ill but merely eccentric, like Beethoven, have had the similar abilities. And eminently sane and non-eccentric artists, like the painter Titian, have been very penetrating also.

Sorry for being once again somewhat off-topic, as is evidently my habit.

[Shane]

If this is true, please god, make me half crazy too!

Shane

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Shane:
If this is true, please god, make me half crazy too!

Shane

Sorry Shane,you will have to come by your genius the old fashioned way,hard work and practise.
One might have thought Beethoven was crazy because of his excentricities,his deafness did shut him out of the real world.
Think of what it might have been like to "talk" to this great Master composer by way of a conversation book.

[Pastorali]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Sorry Shane,you will have to come by your genius the old fashioned way,hard work and practise.
One might have thought Beethoven was crazy because of his excentricities,his deafness did shut him out of the real world.
Think of what it might have been like to "talk" to this great Master composer by way of a conversation book.

"Everyone is born as a genius, but most humans remain it only a few minutes." (Edgar Varese, 1883-1965)

"Genius is about 10% inspiration and 90% transpiration." (Thomas Alva Edison, 1847-1931)

[v russo]

Originally posted by laura Childers:
Lately I have become fascinated with many of the classical composers of the 1800's and 1900's, particularly Beethoven and Chopin. It is so interesting to study a genius, because they are often half crazy. Why do you think that is? Do you believe that Beethoven was half crazy?

[This message has been edited by laura Childers (edited March 22, 2004).]

Beethoven was quite sane in many ways. Dont believe the conventional sterotypes of the "creative artist". It is not true, for the most part.

Are all skies blue and all days sunny?



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v russo

[Steppenwolf]

Firstly I would like to agree wholeheartedly with Amalie's post and the views therein expressed. I would only add that I don't think the originaly poster necessarily meant to insult Beethoven, but was perhaps just exploring the well known theory that there is a fine line of division between genius and insanity.

Secondly, I note that 'madness' is a very subjective word. It really doesn't mean anything, from a scientific point of view. The human mind is incredibly complex and I think every person has his own peculiar oddities if you delve deep enough. But we can say this for certain - Beethoven was certainly not suffering from any serious mental illness, by the standards of modern psychiatry. He was no Van Gogh.

He was of course quite 'eccentric' - now that too is an inprecise word, without a scientific definition, but it is well understood as a laymen's term. It is inevitable that people with extremely high intelligence, or genius, will display signs of eccentricity, simply because they are on another wave-length to the majority of the human race, and so appear strangely 'different' in their behaviour.

[Ahmad]

Hello every one....

As a medical student, I'd like to give my opinion in this controversial subject..

Mental illness is against creation. Creation is a very developed intellectual process that reaquires a very healthy mind. So it's impossible to immagine that mental disease gave artists more "logic" immagination or any kind of creational power.

It was a coincidence that some musicians were mentally ill. Reading the biography of Schuman, it was obvious that he had some "Psyhotic" episodes from time to time. In psychotic episodes the patient is out of reality, and his mental capabilities are impaired. During theses episodes Schuman wasn't able to think logically ,then how could he compose a complex musical pieces?. Furthermore Scuman's illness put an end to his musical career when it became more severe. (He died in a hospital for mental diseases).

In the case of Beethoven, his deafness and consequent isolation reasulted in paranoid symptoms (suspecting others). However, these symptoms didn't develop toward a "psychotic" disease.

To be eccentric is something different . Geniuses have to be somewhat "different" in their behaviour. When a musicians chooses to live alone in a hunt in the forest , it doesn't indicate any "madness". Rather, it indicates more deep feelings, and consequently more healthy minds!


[This message has been edited by Ahmad (edited March 24, 2004).]

[sapphire]

i think that everyone is crazy-anyone who says that they are not at ll are most certainly lying

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by sapphire:
i think that everyone is crazy-anyone who says that they are not at ll are most certainly lying

I had a look at your profile - hope you don't mind. If by 'caving' you mean what we call here in the U.S. 'spelunking', which is crawling thru long underground tunnels where in places one's body can just barely fit thru - well, I would say that a spelunker is probably not the most qualified person to give opinions on everyone else being crazy!



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited March 24, 2004).]