Temperament in B's times

[chopithoven]

I'd like to know which temperaments B had in mind when composing, and in which were his instruments tuned, and besides, how much could those temperaments differ from equal temperament. Is the inidividual character of different keys, that B obviously exploited as a musical resource, lost to us with the actual practice?

[Rod]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
I'd like to know which temperaments B had in mind when composing...

Well it wasn't the equal temperament we have today. Here are some links on the subject, they are a bit technical, but read around the text and you'll find some interesting stuff.
http://www.casaninja.com/christi/old...caltuning.html

http://www.rdrop.com/users/tblackb/m...ent/stoess.htm
http://www.rdrop.com/users/tblackb/music/temperament/
http://www-math.cudenver.edu/~jstarret/tuninghist.html


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited March 10, 2004).]

[urtextmeister]

Rod,

Rod. I got interested in tuning a while back when I tried to learn to tune my clavichord using some authentic tuning schemes. I had a piano technician friend of mine work on this with me.
The web sites you suggested are very interesting. I greedily saved them and plan to read every word.
Thanks.

[Gurn Blanston]

Rod,
Nice bunch of links. Thanks,


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well it wasn't the equal temperament we have today. Here are some links on the subject, they are a bit technical, but read around the text and you'll find some interesting stuff.
http://www.casaninja.com/christi/old...caltuning.html

http://www.rdrop.com/users/tblackb/m...ent/stoess.htm
http://www.rdrop.com/users/tblackb/music/temperament/
http://www-math.cudenver.edu/~jstarret/tuninghist.html

Very interesting, Rod, thanks for posting these URLs. I can see now that you would probably prefer to hear Beethoven performed on well, not equal-tempered instruments(?) Do any original instruments groups use this, or are any fortepianos tuned that way?

It seems that Wagner can be largely blamed, or credited, also for the adoption of equal temperament, as the first URL says that it did not come into very widespread use until chromaticism appeared in Romantic music.

I would like to hear one piece played in well, and then equal temperaments. Is it possible that can be done with MP3 postings?

I think I've always been able to hear when a band is somewhat out of tune, such as a high school band or even my local regional classical orchestra, which I thought was slightly out of tune at the last concert they gave. Now I wonder what I actually hear when I think a group is IN tune.

[chopithoven]

Thanks for the links.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Very interesting, Rod, thanks for posting these URLs. I can see now that you would probably prefer to hear Beethoven performed on well, not equal-tempered instruments(?) Do any original instruments groups use this, or are any fortepianos tuned that way?

Some of my recordings state the piano is tuned to equal temperament, thus they are not in this respect 'authentic', but most do not state the tuning. Basically if the sound comes across as too 'easy on the ear' I suspect it is equal. This is part of the problem with instruments today especially, they sound too 'easy', or unengaging to the (or at least my) ear. They are robbed of colour and vitality.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Some of my recordings state the piano is tuned to equal temperament, thus they are not in this respect 'authentic', but most do not state the tuning. Basically if the sound comes across as too 'easy on the ear' I suspect it is equal. This is part of the problem with instruments today especially, they sound too 'easy', or unengaging to the (or at least my) ear. They are robbed of colour and vitality.

Do you have any recordings at all in well-temperament? Years ago I heard something that was supposed to have been in mean temperament, but I couldn't tell the difference.

[Rutradelusasa]

I have a recording of 3 piano sonatas, a variation and a fantasy by Haydn (one CD - Olympus) where the piano is from the late 18th century (I don't recall the year) and they tuned it to unequal temperament at A=424Hz. Really nice, does a lot of diference.

[Chris]

I have a lot of different temperments on my digital piano. I rarely use them, though.

Some of you may remember Paul List from the edepot forum. He worked with a pianist named Susan Halligan, and they recorded the Diabelli Variations in the Kirnberger III temperment. I'm not sure whatever happened to him, but I still have the CD, and I'm sure he wouldn't mind me posting the final track. It's a comparison between the Kirnberger III and equal temperments. Download it http://www.gyrix.com/comparison.mp3here</a>.

[Chris]

By the way, I'll leave that up for a week or so.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
I have a lot of different temperments on my digital piano. I rarely use them, though.

Some of you may remember Paul List from the edepot forum. He worked with a pianist named Susan Halligan, and they recorded the Diabelli Variations in the Kirnberger III temperment. I'm not sure whatever happened to him, but I still have the CD, and I'm sure he wouldn't mind me posting the final track. It's a comparison between the Kirnberger III and equal temperments. Download it http://www.gyrix.com/comparison.mp3here</a>.

I still have this CD myself, in some of the tracks the difference is quite noticeable though with that modern piano (Yamaha I think?) there are still problems, I am still mystified as to why they didn't take the project one logical step further and use a fortepiano.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited March 13, 2004).]

[Chris]

Yes, I was puzzled by that myself. If you are going to the trouble of using authentic tuning, why not play it on an instrument like what they would have had then?

But perhaps Susan had never played a fortepiano before and didn't want to take the time to get one, learn the characteristics of it, etc. As I recall, that Yamaha was hers.