Ode to Joy Theme???

[King Stephen]

An interesting question was asked of me by a 5th grade student. The question being "Did any composer use Beethoven's Ode to Joy theme"? The composers I came up with were Schubert's Sym No. 9 4th movement, Sibelius Sym No. 5 4th movement and a fleeting and vague reference by Brahms in the 4th movement of his Sym No. 1. Are there any other composers that used the theme or made vague reference to it?

[Rutradelusasa]

I think the only one example I know is of Brahms 1st, 4th movement, where (so the story is told) after the concert a critic said in a review "... the 4th movement really resembles that of the Beethoven's 9th..." and Brahms replied "... only a fool would have missed that...".

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
I think the only one example I know is of Brahms 1st, 4th movement, where (so the story is told) after the concert a critic said in a review "... the 4th movement really resembles that of the Beethoven's 9th..." and Brahms replied "... only a fool would have missed that...".

Well I must be that fool because I've never felt there is any resemblance between the two - the themes themselves are quite different in character to my ears. The differences between the two movements far outweigh any similarities to make any comparison nonsensical; Recitative, variations, choral writing and fugue are all absent from Brahms' finale - he was probably quite embarrased to have his 1st referred to as Beethoven's 10th!

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited March 12, 2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by King Stephen:
An interesting question was asked of me by a 5th grade student. The question being "Did any composer use Beethoven's Ode to Joy theme"? The composers I came up with were Schubert's Sym No. 9 4th movement, Sibelius Sym No. 5 4th movement and a fleeting and vague reference by Brahms in the 4th movement of his Sym No. 1. Are there any other composers that used the theme or made vague reference to it?

I don't see any resemblance in these pieces to B's theme! Schubert's theme is really a drinking song in character - indeed I recall a very raucous rendition we gave as students whilst under the influence!


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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited March 12, 2004).]

[urtextmeister]

Peter,

This is a side of you I didn't know about...

I do hear faint whispers of the ode theme is Brahms 1, but probably coincidence or subconscious. Schubert 9 I have never noticed. The only Sibelius symphony I know is the ubiquitous 2. I will check out number 5.

This is an interesting topic, King, I guess I should say "Your Highness." It would make a great dissertation. You could trace every fleeting reference to this theme during the 19th century. You would probably come up with many "possibles."

[SR]

By your question did you mean after the 9th was premiered, or before ?

Beethoven used it himself in Op 80 and Mozart used it many years before that
in a Offertory K 222.

Steve

[v russo]

Originally posted by King Stephen:
An interesting question was asked of me by a 5th grade student. The question being "Did any composer use Beethoven's Ode to Joy theme"? The composers I came up with were Schubert's Sym No. 9 4th movement, Sibelius Sym No. 5 4th movement and a fleeting and vague reference by Brahms in the 4th movement of his Sym No. 1. Are there any other composers that used the theme or made vague reference to it?

actually Beethoven does in a few prior works
how about that melodic idea in the first movement of the 4th piano concerto~



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v russo

[Chaszz]

I think in a wider sense, this topic is interesting in relation to the supposed truism that once a great master has changed art, you can't go back to the way it was before. Beethoven's approach to the symphony in general and his finale to the Ninth in particular haunted the rest of the nineteenth century, in that many composers felt you couldn't write symphonies the same way anymore. Even though Haydn and Mozart wrote great symphonies, particularly Mozart's last three, you couldn't go back and write symphonies anymore like that after Beethoven, they had to be bigger and more important. All composers may not have exactly felt this way, but Brahms did and put off writing his first for years, saying 'you don't know how it feels to have the tramp-tramp-tramp of a giant like Beethoven behind you'. When he finally got around to it, he evidently felt the last movement had to be introduced by a kind of 'universal love' type theme such as Beethoven had used in the Ninth's finale. Brahms later outgrew this limitation and wrote three beautiful symphonies which did not have to bow obediently to the Ninth in this way.

For Wagner, Beethoven's Ninth meant the end of the symphony, period. Beethoven had expanded the form so much by adding the voices and the chorus that music could henceforth develop forwards only as opera or, rather, music-drama. Wagner eventually also outgrew this prejudice and even was planning to try writing a few instrumental symphonies when he died.

But undeniably Beethoven set the mold for the symphony ever since, and all of them have had to be big and very ambitious, and nobody has produced more than 9 or 10, in Beethoven's mold. No-one, except perhaps a few very consicously neo-classicizing composers whose names we don't even know, tried going back to the Haydn/Mozart scale.

After Schoenberg a lot of composers said you couldn't go back to tonality anymore. Obviously many have, especially lately. Have there been any great ones?

After Joyce, some writers said you couldn't write ordinary fiction anymore. William Faulkner produced a large body of great work in a kind of Joycean style. Samuel Beckett, Joyce's protege, used ordiary language but got around the Joycean limitation by taking out almost everything, including the plot, but managed anyway to write very moving works. Yet obviously since then a few writers at least have managed to write great novels in a more traditional style. But have they been as great?

After abstract painting some critics and artists said art would be abstract forever, but that seemed to last only five or ten years. Yet also one might question whether anything good has been done since.

And has any composer after Beethoven been as great? (Well, Steppenwolf and I might have one possible answer for this, but almost definitely there would be no more than that one possibility.)



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited March 12, 2004).]

[King Stephen]

Originally posted by Peter:
I don't see any resemblance in these pieces to B's theme! Schubert's theme is really a drinking song in character - indeed I recall a very raucous rendition we gave as students whilst under the influence!

Peter, I am sorry you can't hear the "ode to joy" fragment in the last movement of the Schubert 9th. I was in my 30's when it was pointed out to me by the concertmaster of an orchestra just outside of Boston. Now every time I hear the work I hear Schubert paying homage to B. I do agree with you on the Brahms reference. I think people of that day wanted to hear Beethoven in the Brahms work.
There must be more referneces to the "Ode to Joy" and I don't mean by Beethoven. Well... the theme will show up when I least expect it. As far as the Sibelius 5th Sym the Ode to joy theme is quoted almost note for note.

[This message has been edited by King Stephen (edited March 12, 2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by King Stephen:
Peter, I am sorry you can't hear the "ode to joy" fragment in the last movement of the Schubert 9th. I was in my 30's when it was pointed out to me by the concertmaster of an orchestra just outside of Boston. Now every time I hear the work I hear Schubert paying homage to B. I do agree with you on the Brahms reference. I think people of that day wanted to hear Beethoven in the Brahms work.
There must be more referneces to the "Ode to Joy" and I don't mean by Beethoven. Well... the theme will show up when I least expect it. As far as the Sibelius 5th Sym the Ode to joy theme is quoted almost note for note.

[This message has been edited by King Stephen (edited March 12, 2004).]

I haven't heard the Sibelius for while, but I think you are right, there is a theme that accompanies that repetetive horn sequence. Still don't hear it in the Schubert though - yes maybe one or two notes, but the overall effect of the two themes is quite different (in the Sibelius as well).

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'Man know thyself'

[King Stephen]

Originally posted by Peter:
I haven't heard the Sibelius for while, but I think you are right, there is a theme that accompanies that repetetive horn sequence. Still don't hear it in the Schubert though - yes maybe one or two notes, but the overall effect of the two themes is quite different (in the Sibelius as well).

I just finished listening to the 4th movement of the Schubert 9th Symphony and counted the 8 notes that Schubert uses in his quote of the "ode to joy" motive, no less then 7 times. Along with that there are a few innendoes here and there to the same theme. I think Peter, I will have to buy the sheet music of both and compare the themes. Sound like a plan?......

[This message has been edited by King Stephen (edited March 12, 2004).]