Classical TV - MOZART

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by spaceray:
"wiped clean" yikes,what ever can you mean by this?

haha, that does sound a bit sinister doesn't it?!

If you look at history of civilisations, they tend to be cyclical. A new civilisation and culture will grow, then mature, then become old and corrupt, and collapse and die. Everything is organic and cyclical, even human constructs and institutions. See what happened to the Romans. When a civilisation is very old it tends to become lethargic, lazy, uncultured, corrupt and senile ... to make a Gotterdammerung type analogy, our civilisation seems very self-destructive, and seems to be willing its own downfall and destruction. The signs are all around. I think we may be living in the twilight of the West. These ideas are heavily influenced by a book I have read, 'The Decline of the West' ('Das Untergang des Abendlandes'), by Oswald Spengler. When we finally collapse into rubble, no doubt a new civilisation will come along (perhaps after a dark age), find some Beethoven CDs laying around, and start to pick up the pieces and start again. Then there will be a new renaissance!

Who next? China, perhaps?

[v russo]

Originally posted by Amalie:
The Empire of the Mind.

In reply to Gurn and v.russo about the shape of things to come.
Perhaps we could start with my view of global television. About 30 years ago appeared on British tv the ultimate gold standard which was Kenneth Clarke's 'Civilization' closely followed by another brilliant blockbuster 'Bronowski's' Ascent of Man.
Unsurprisingly, these two brilliant series translated easily into wonderful spin off books. So tv can do it, that is produce viewing and educational material of the highest quality. But that was then, and this is now!.
The slight difficulty is that globaly speaking, the tv is becoming a refuge for the disadvantaged or deprived, either intellectually, materially or otherwise, but where the content is locked into a cycle of ever declining standards where vast commercial interests and the lowest common denominator of human taste each feed off one another. I am not confident that this depressing cycle can be reversed so far as tv is concerned, where on the one hand we have the vast profits of the corporations in pandering to an ever lower standard of public taste, as Gurn quite rightly observes and the almost masochistic desire of millions to drag themselves down into the lowest levels of human excess and turpitude.
The truth about the modern world is surely this, that it is placing vast premuims on the intellectual resources of everyone and woe betide anyone in these demanding and challenging times whatever their level of education maybe who does not take steps to improve their skills,learning, culture, artistic appreciation and general thinking power. That is why tv is such a lie nowadays and is doing such a disservice to millions of fellow creatures by inculcating a creed of the basist sort that Beethoven would have despised by allowing people to wallow in this excess and not to fit and prepare them for the challenges ahead.
Entertainment of course is a different thing and everyone has different ideas about that, and if someone gets something from tv, then fair enough. But as the great American business philosopher Jim Rohn says, 'Frankly, you don't want the reputation of being known as being a television watcher', that we should skip the trash, even if there might be on odd occasions something worthwhile and the example he gives is of going through trash cans to find a piece of bread.
As he quite rightly says, there just too much brilliant stuff to read, listen to, absorb and reflect on and apply in ones life rather than the trash. So if there is hardly any time to absorb even a part of the brilliant stuff, why on earth are people bothering with trash.

Beethoven's most telling phrase which should stand as the rubric of the internet
Was his idea of the 'Empire of the Mind'.
I think he would have welcomed the great positive aspects of the internet and the true arrival of the global village.
The truth is, the modern world has become almost entirely a mental construct which the internet brilliantly encapsulates and conveys. We lead our normal lives pretty much in the old way, but above, below and all around us, and even permeating our very being is this awesome intellectual medium used intelligently, called the internet.
The potential of computers and the internet in my view has scarcely been scratched, and I was reading in fortune magazine last week that Bill Gates is working on a typically pioneering project to improve the computer interface and communicability called Long Horn. Billions are being spent on some incredible projects, and research and development, and we really do not know in what staggering discoveries are around the corner. What is for sure, is that the future will not belong to tv viewers unless something radically changes there, either in the medium, the message, or more probably the viewer. You don't get progress without intellectual effort, and tv is the very antithesis and enemy of this so it is therefore a defunct medium which can offer nothing in its present form to the world that is now being created unless it is radically changed.
The Heisenberg uncertainty principle of the universe says that we can't know two things at once, that is, we can only study the movement of something but not its destination or vice versa, but not both.
The phenomenal progress of the internet means that we don't really know where it is headed, but I for one think it will be an exciting journey. But it will only be a journey for those who have the flexibility and thinking machinery, and make the effort to stay the trip!
and anything that impairs out ability or makes us dummer and not smarter must be ruthlessly sidelined in my view, because this is such a demanding and challenging age and we need all our wits about us.
There was some silly talk some years ago about computers abolishing books, but we can now see how mistaken this is because the digital revolution is also feulling a renaissance in books and printing material.
The sum total of human learning is so unspeakably vast that books and the internet work together in a virtous circle, though I accept some types of publishing has declined but that will only make for new forms. May I respectfully point out that the philosophical basis of the new technology has scarcely even been outlined yet alone shaped into some sort of coherent form and we are no doubt creating things that we don't fully understand.
So to summerize this is an age of wonders and miracles, to quote the line from a recent Paul Simon song. But it is a demanding time as well, and all of us have to pull together and pool intellectual resources to create a greater quality of life for every one.
And let's try turning off the TV shall we?

[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 28, 2004).]

you have a great mind Amalie, but I hope the masses follow your example. The majority still want and are addicted to trash, they dont even realize what else is out there half of the time. The internet is a vast trash pool and you know it. Trash can be found in any given situation, converstion, internet, T.V., fantasy...etc, etc

I love your optimism but, ....I am not so sure.

OoPS~ gotta' go, I just rented a new Porno...





------------------
v russo

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:

haha, that does sound a bit sinister doesn't it?!

If you look at history of civilisations, they tend to be cyclical. A new civilisation and culture will grow, then mature, then become old and corrupt, and collapse and die. Everything is organic and cyclical, even human constructs and institutions. See what happened to the Romans. When a civilisation is very old it tends to become lethargic, lazy, uncultured, corrupt and senile ... to make a Gotterdammerung type analogy, our civilisation seems very self-destructive, and seems to be willing its own downfall and destruction. The signs are all around. I think we may be living in the twilight of the West. These ideas are heavily influenced by a book I have read, 'The Decline of the West' ('Das Untergang des Abendlandes'), by Oswald Spengler. When we finally collapse into rubble, no doubt a new civilisation will come along (perhaps after a dark age), find some Beethoven CDs laying around, and start to pick up the pieces and start again. Then there will be a new renaissance!

Who next? China, perhaps?

Steppenwolf,
Many thanks for the history lesson.
I do hope that in your utopia I won't have to listen to Wagner through loudspeakers on every streetcorner.To me this would be just as bad as Celine Dion.
I think there are gilmmers of hope for the future.
I'm not quite clear on what you mean by "What next,China perhaps?"

Perplexed,
Muriel

[Amalie]

Originally posted by v russo:
you have a great mind Amalie, but I hope the masses follow your example. The majority still want and are addicted to trash, they dont even realize what else is out there half of the time. The internet is a vast trash pool and you know it. Trash can be found in any given situation, converstion, internet, T.V., fantasy...etc, etc

I love your optimism but, ....I am not so sure.

OoPS~ gotta' go, I just rented a new Porno...

Well yes, if you look for trash you will find it. But as I mentioned there is also a lot of educational material that can be tapped into.
For instance there is The Shakespeare Conference Site where there is a heavy proportion of scholars from all over the world and there is much to be learnt from this site, including 'THIS' one and many others.
It is a mystery of the mind why people consciously choose trash.



[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 29, 2004).]

[v russo]

Originally posted by Amalie:

Well yes, if you look for trash you will find it. But as I mentioned there is also a lot of educational material that can be tapped into.
For instance there is The Shakespeare Conference Site where there is a heavy proportion of scholars from all over the world and there is much to be learnt from this site, including 'THIS' one and many others.
It is a mystery of the mind why people consciously choose trash.

[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 29, 2004).]

they choose it because it is much more readily available to them. The media and big corporations are selling "trash" not Shakespeare or higher forms of culture for that matter.

------------------
v russo

[Amalie]

Originally posted by v russo:

they choose it because it is much more readily available to them. The media and big corporations are selling "trash" not Shakespeare or higher forms of culture for that matter.

v.russo,

You don't have to follow other people's programme, you follow your own.
The media does not own your mind,! 'YOU' do!



[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 29, 2004).]

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Steppenwolf,
Many thanks for the history lesson.
I do hope that in your utopia I won't have to listen to Wagner through loudspeakers on every streetcorner.To me this would be just as bad as Celine Dion.
I think there are gilmmers of hope for the future.
I'm not quite clear on what you mean by "What next,China perhaps?"

Perplexed,
Muriel

I am just recovering from convulsing on the floor in shock at your comparison between Wagner and Celine Dion! ahhhh!!!! That's terrible, Muriel!

As for China, watch out for that country! While the West is beginning to languish in complacency and decadence, China is accelerating ahead with economic growth with alarming speed. Once the shackles of communism are removed, I tentatively guess we could be seeing the emergence of a new superpower within 50 years. My advice to young people around my age, who plan to be around for a good part of this century is - start learning Chinese! The only problem with the China thing is that they are not really presenting a brand new culture, but just a tacky replica of the west, so if western culture declines, it will drag all other imitations of it down as well.

By the way, the new renaissance, way into the future that I envisage is no 'utopia'. I don't believe in utopias - they never had existed and never will. The new future culture will grow and flourish, but then eventually decline and die as well. Such is life, everything is cyclical.

[Chaszz]

Amalie, American TV in general is certainly no better than British, and I was just commenting on the dumbing down of the BBC, which used to represent a certain standard across the board. And of course it's no doubt American business culture that has taught the world to dumb down.

BBC America is I'm sure meant to turn a profit, and they no doubt charge the cable systems that carry them something, so its no surprise they would purchase something from a private network.

Just for the record, there is a TV station in New York, WNYE, owned by the New York City Board of Education, which runs the public schools there. They broadcast a current drama from American regional theatre every Monday night, a taped classical concert in its entirety every Tuesday night, and a taped opera from one of the great opera houses of the world every Wednesday night. I actually have to struggle to resist this stuff to keep at my own painting properly. Since many of the operas are 'modrun' productions which I prefer to skip, this provides some relief. But of the other three hundred channels available on cable here now, there is very little to watch. I make exceptions for the Mafia series "The Sopranos" and the comedy series "Curb Your Enthusiasm" (by the writer who created "Seinfeld".) These are both very good. But the rest is, as Amalie says, a large desert of greasy discarded food wrappers and rusty tin cans.

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
I am just recovering from convulsing on the floor in shock at your comparison between Wagner and Celine Dion! ahhhh!!!! That's terrible, Muriel!

As for China, watch out for that country! While the West is beginning to languish in complacency and decadence, China is accelerating ahead with economic growth with alarming speed. Once the shackles of communism are removed, I tentatively guess we could be seeing the emergence of a new superpower within 50 years. My advice to young people around my age, who plan to be around for a good part of this century is - start learning Chinese! The only problem with the China thing is that they are not really presenting a brand new culture, but just a tacky replica of the west, so if western culture declines, it will drag all other imitations of it down as well.

By the way, the new renaissance, way into the future that I envisage is no 'utopia'. I don't believe in utopias - they never had existed and never will. The new future culture will grow and flourish, but then eventually decline and die as well. Such is life, everything is cyclical.

Steppenwolf,
I did not compare Wagner to Celine Dion,I said that one would be as awful a diet for my ears as the other.

China,a tacky replica of the west,yes I agree with this.The pop music blasting from the loud speakers on every corner is appalling ,what a cacophony that country is.
The renaissance in China ? Perhaps.I know that the west is looking back into China's past to ancient medicine and other health practices to solve modern medical problems.

You think it might be valuable to learn Chinese ,perhaps Chas.zz is correct about the decline of the English language and we might as well forget about learning any other language but msg txt .
Muriel
(I have tried to like Wagner,honestly,but it's just too much ,too loud, too long ,too big and too much bloody singing)

[Peter]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Steppenwolf,
I did not compare Wagner to Celine Dion,I said that one would be as awful a diet for my ears as the other.

China,a tacky replica of the west,yes I agree with this.The pop music blasting from the loud speakers on every corner is appalling ,what a cacophony that country is.
The renaissance in China ? Perhaps.I know that the west is looking back into China's past to ancient medicine and other health practices to solve modern medical problems.

You think it might be valuable to learn Chinese ,perhaps Chas.zz is correct about the decline of the English language and we might as well forget about learning any other language but msg txt .
Muriel
(I have tried to like Wagner,honestly,but it's just too much ,too loud, too long ,too big and too much bloody singing)

The Chinese had a highly evolved musical system centuries before the west, even working out mathematically the system of equal temperament (though they never implemented it) - this took Europe until the 19th century to achieve!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Amalie, American TV in general is certainly no better than British, and I was just commenting on the dumbing down of the BBC, which used to represent a certain standard across the board. And of course it's no doubt American business culture that has taught the world to dumb down.

BBC America is I'm sure meant to turn a profit, and they no doubt charge the cable systems that carry them something, so its no surprise they would purchase something from a private network.

Just for the record, there is a TV station in New York, WNYE, owned by the New York City Board of Education, which runs the public schools there. They broadcast a current drama from American regional theatre every Monday night, a taped classical concert in its entirety every Tuesday night, and a taped opera from one of the great opera houses of the world every Wednesday night. I actually have to struggle to resist this stuff to keep at my own painting properly. Since many of the operas are 'modrun' productions which I prefer to skip, this provides some relief. But of the other three hundred channels available on cable here now, there is very little to watch. I make exceptions for the Mafia series "The Sopranos" and the comedy series "Curb Your Enthusiasm" (by the writer who created "Seinfeld".) These are both very good. But the rest is, as Amalie says, a large desert of greasy discarded food wrappers and rusty tin cans.

Your comments on the BBC in America are very interesting. I used to listen to the BBC World Service. It has gone very peculiar in the last few years and seems to be obsessed with everything which is alien to the west and western culture, ie, very strange and not very appealing Arab music and sections on Middle East politics.
Basically everything other than Britian, Europe and America. I have stopped listening to it now.
I think that we can get higher standards by demanding them. The fact is that people seem to be besotted with the idea of trash celebrity and culture and unless and until people change and consciously demand better things, the big corporations will continue to drip feed this pernicious drivel to the masses. Surely if people demanded Beethoven for instance and programmes about him and his music, or Wagner for that, then the corporations would have to respond because their profits would depend on it, and even Mr. Murdoch would then have to pay attention. And of course it would have a knock on effect in the rest of society as people become more cultured and civilized and perhaps then we would genuinely a change for the better in society. But don't hold your breath.
Nobody ever lost money on underestimating the poor taste of the masses.
In Britian there is a very shrewd guy called 'Felix Dennis' who owns the most appalling 'Laddo'
Magazine called Maxim, which is almost literally unreadable, and he is a fabulously wealthy guy who understands to the uttermost the stupidity and gullibility of the majority of young British males and has made himself a tremendous fortune in exploiting this. So there is quite a task on hand if we want to try and improve things in that area and wean young males away from drink and football. But I realize this a tall order to say the least.





[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited March 01, 2004).]

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Peter:
The Chinese had a highly evolved musical system centuries before the west, even working out mathematically the system of equal temperament (though they never implemented it) - this took Europe until the 19th century to achieve!

Yes and in the middle ages the Chinese had the worlds first industrial revolution, but the Emperors consciously decided not to pursue it.
Of course the Chinese now are so obsessed with economic growth that they couldn't care less about quality and doing a desservice to their own great and ancient culture.
I think of them nowadays as a giant version of Japan in the 70's, and I do not at all think that they are a threat to the west, either economically, or in any other way, they are so far behind in terms of law, business culture, integrated markets, infrastructure etc.
I think we will find that China is a dog that doesn't bark.

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by spaceray:

I have tried to like Wagner,honestly,but it's just too much ,too loud, too long ,too big and too much bloody singing

Listen to Wagner's orchestral piece, 'Siegfried Idyll', then tell me what you think.

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
Listen to Wagner's orchestral piece, 'Siegfried Idyll', then tell me what you think.

Chaszz posted this piece last year for me to listen to but the sound quality was so poor it rather put me off.

I will borrow this from the library and listen to it ,then get back to you.
Muriel

[Jin]

Originally posted by Amalie:
Yes and in the middle ages the Chinese had the worlds first industrial revolution, but the Emperors consciously decided not to pursue it.
Of course the Chinese now are so obsessed with economic growth that they couldn't care less about quality and doing a desservice to their own great and ancient culture.
I think of them nowadays as a giant version of Japan in the 70's, and I do not at all think that they are a threat to the west, either economically, or in any other way, they are so far behind in terms of law, business culture, integrated markets, infrastructure etc.
I think we will find that China is a dog that doesn't bark.

I'm no expert, but I've been there a few times in the past couple of years and it seems that it's not so much that they're obsessed with economic growth as that capitalism is still such a difference from centralization of everything that it's like a feeding frenzy. Like you said, the infrastructure isn't there yet, so there's a lot of cutting corners, especially with the mindset over there that if you don't screw someone they'll probably screw you. I think that mentality arises from the size of the population. There're so many people and thus so much competition that there's no room for courtesy and manners.

I wouldn't call them a threat (that's sort of an ambiguously negative term), but considering the labor potential and the new influx of international interests, I'd say that China will be definitely be a major competitor in the next few decades. The infrastructure is starting to grow; foreign companies are starting to import quality standards into chain grocers and other shops. Of course this creates the problem of putting the reins in foreign hands and also of putting mom 'n pop stores out of business, but that's way over my head.

Culturally though... the current generation really is throwing off traditional culture and buying into cultural imports. But I suppose that's true of the current generation of any nation. The TV line-up is a lot less trashy though, partly because stations are still mostly controlled by government. There are more educational shows for kids, regional news, and foreign films (not just from the US), though there are also many cheesy Japanese game shows. Even so, those are more quirky and amusing than the reality shows in the US.

As for the music, it's really almost pathetic how the traditional stuff is neglected now. This summer I was at an opera performance on a Sunday -- the house was more than half empty and the audience was almost completely people over 50. Last year I went to a concert where the musicians played western music on traditional Chinese instruments. Again, it was sparsely attended (though less so, probably due to the novelty factor). So it seems that the state of Chinese traditional music is worse than the classical music here. Although there was a piano concert given by a guy named Lang Lang (he won some sort of international competition?) that I went to which was sold out.

In general though, I think most traditional forms of Chinese culture/music survive only because they're supported by the state. It's odd, you see it on TV frequently and there are plenty of cassettes/CDs in stores, but you almost never see young people watching or buying. Most of the people who buy that stuff don't even own CD players.

Does anyone here like Chinese opera? I wasn't aware how disconcerting people here found it until I played it for one of my friends and he couldn't get used to it. Now that I think about it, it could really be something kids would like, what with the bright colors and all.