Specialist Early Music Question

[Steppenwolf]

Are there any early music/renaissance music specialists on this forum?

I have a question regarding some rather obscure renaissance/early baroque (16th or 17th century) music that requires specialist knowledge. Perhaps noone will be able to answer it, but if anyone can I would be extremely grateful.

There was a British film made around 1972 called 'Henry the VIII and his Six Wives', staring Keith Michelle. In that film a lot of 16th (and, I suspect, 17th) century music is used, and there are a couple of pieces I would like to track down and find. By any chance, does anyone know of this movie and know the names of the pieces of music and who composed them? The titles were not included in the credits.

[Peter]

I am no specialist and don't remember the film, however if you are interested in 16th/17th century music William Byrd is the greatest of the English composers from that period. From Italy there are many but Luca Marenzio and of course Monteverdi stand out - his madrigal Lamento d'Arianna (taken from his opera Arianna) opens in a way just as original and startling for its day (1614) as Wagner's tristan 250 years later.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited February 26, 2004).]

[Joy]

I don't recall seeing that particular movie but funny you should mention Henry the VIII as I am in the middle of watching a six episode program on him and his six wives, a new adaptaion which is on PBS. Regarding the 16th-17th century music look into Monteverdi, of course, Scarlatti (1660-1725), and Pachelbel (1653-1706).

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
Are there any early music/renaissance music specialists on this forum?

I have a question regarding some rather obscure renaissance/early baroque (16th or 17th century) music that requires specialist knowledge. Perhaps noone will be able to answer it, but if anyone can I would be extremely grateful.

There was a British film made around 1972 called 'Henry the VIII and his Six Wives', staring Keith Michelle. In that film a lot of 16th (and, I suspect, 17th) century music is used, and there are a couple of pieces I would like to track down and find. By any chance, does anyone know of this movie and know the names of the pieces of music and who composed them? The titles were not included in the credits.

Steppenwolf,
One of the pieces of music used for a scene concerning Jane Seymour came from The Fitzwilliam Virginal Book and is titled "Pavan"
"Sunlight fair still lingers in her hair,
with no less brighter beauty than it e're shone there,and despite the winters bitter blight,no lily on her cheek grows any lesser white"
Was it not Jane who was laid to rest beside the King?

Muriel

[spaceray]

Whoops ,forgot to say it was by William Byrd.
I can recommend "An Elizabethan Songbook"
Subtitled Lute Songs Madrigals and Rounds.
This contains all the greatest hits of the time.

[Gurn Blanston]

Steppenwolf,
I have posted the question in an appropriate place, and will let you know what I hear back. In the meanwhile, we can try to exhaust spaceray's fund of information, although I suspect it won't be easy.


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[spaceray]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
Are there any early music/renaissance music specialists on this forum?

I have a question regarding some rather obscure renaissance/early baroque (16th or 17th century) music that requires specialist knowledge. Perhaps noone will be able to answer it, but if anyone can I would be extremely grateful.

There was a British film made around 1972 called 'Henry the VIII and his Six Wives', staring Keith Michelle. In that film a lot of 16th (and, I suspect, 17th) century music is used, and there are a couple of pieces I would like to track down and find. By any chance, does anyone know of this movie and know the names of the pieces of music and who composed them? The titles were not included in the credits.

Steppenwolf ,
You did not mention if it was song or instrumental music?
My friend also disremembers the movie you speak of and seems to recall a piece for the Lute by Giovanni Girolamo Kapsberger,but if as you say the music you look for is obscure it is likely none of my suggestions will help.
Muriel

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
Are there any early music/renaissance music specialists on this forum?

I have a question regarding some rather obscure renaissance/early baroque (16th or 17th century) music that requires specialist knowledge. Perhaps noone will be able to answer it, but if anyone can I would be extremely grateful.

There was a British film made around 1972 called 'Henry the VIII and his Six Wives', staring Keith Michelle. In that film a lot of 16th (and, I suspect, 17th) century music is used, and there are a couple of pieces I would like to track down and find. By any chance, does anyone know of this movie and know the names of the pieces of music and who composed them? The titles were not included in the credits.

I am not sure if this will be terribly helpful Steppenwolf, but the following link has information about the Henry V111 & his six wives movie, which I found was actually 1973. You will find the 'user' comments section interesting, but no mention of the music, drats!
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0070170

Other than that we shall have to sit tight and wait for the outcome of Gurn's search.
Or search the BBC film archives.


[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 27, 2004).]

[Steppenwolf]

Thank you very much everyone, for the recomendations (I will definitely try them), and thanks Gurn, for initiating a seperate search.

After posting this original message I may have actually uncovered some of the mystery myself, through an intensive internet search. It seems that while some of the music used in the movie was original, I was astonished to learn that a large part of it was by a MODERN composer - David Munrow - who wrote music specifically for the movie, in the renaisance style, orchestrated on authentic historical instruments. This is quite suprising because the little I have heard of music of that period makes me think that Munrow copied the styles of the time very authentically and convincingly.

For anyone interested, this is what I found - http://www.testament.uk.com/Notes/munrow1note.pdf

I have since tracked down the CD on amazon and have ordered it. It contains some original music and well as Munrow's compositions. I will let you all know what I think of it.

Having discovered this, I have been thinking a lot about other posts on this forum concerned with the dearth of talent amongst modern classical composers. I wonder whether they really are out there, it's just that there is no market for them. Pop audiences aren't interested, and classical audiences expect modern classical compositions to be avant guarde, so there is no demand for composers who write in old-fashioned styles, and it is the styles of the past that have merit, more than anything.

For instance, there is the brilliant pianist Robert Levine, who can improvise very well, and he has himself composed many pieces in the style of Mozart, pieces with great merit. But there is no real demand for them. Modern classical composers are expected to be continually avant-guarde and modern.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
Thank you very much everyone, for the recomendations (I will definitely try them), and thanks Gurn, for initiating a seperate search.

After posting this original message I may have actually uncovered some of the mystery myself, through an intensive internet search. It seems that while some of the music used in the movie was original, I was astonished to learn that a large part of it was by a MODERN composer - David Munrow - who wrote music specifically for the movie, in the renaisance style, orchestrated on authentic historical instruments. This is quite suprising because the little I have heard of music of that period makes me think that Munrow copied the styles of the time very authentically and convincingly.

For anyone interested, this is what I found - http://www.testament.uk.com/Notes/munrow1note.pdf

I have since tracked down the CD on amazon and have ordered it. It contains some original music and well as Munrow's compositions. I will let you all know what I think of it.

Having discovered this, I have been thinking a lot about other posts on this forum concerned with the dearth of talent amongst modern classical composers. I wonder whether they really are out there, it's just that there is no market for them. Pop audiences aren't interested, and classical audiences expect modern classical compositions to be avant guarde, so there is no demand for composers who write in old-fashioned styles, and it is the styles of the past that have merit, more than anything.

For instance, there is the brilliant pianist Robert Levine, who can improvise very well, and he has himself composed many pieces in the style of Mozart, pieces with great merit. But there is no real demand for them. Modern classical composers are expected to be continually avant-guarde and modern.

Well I don't think the answer is to provide pale imitations of Mozart etc (you can't turn the clock back however well it may be done), but to somehow find a voice that is different, intellectually challenging and at the same time relevant and appealing - no easy task. Another Renaissance is needed!

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'Man know thyself'

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
Thank you very much everyone, for the recomendations (I will definitely try them), and thanks Gurn, for initiating a seperate search.

After posting this original message I may have actually uncovered some of the mystery myself, through an intensive internet search. It seems that while some of the music used in the movie was original, I was astonished to learn that a large part of it was by a MODERN composer - David Munrow - who wrote music specifically for the movie, in the renaisance style, orchestrated on authentic historical instruments. This is quite suprising because the little I have heard of music of that period makes me think that Munrow copied the styles of the time very authentically and convincingly.

For anyone interested, this is what I found - http://www.testament.uk.com/Notes/munrow1note.pdf

I have since tracked down the CD on amazon and have ordered it. It contains some original music and well as Munrow's compositions. I will let you all know what I think of it.

Having discovered this, I have been thinking a lot about other posts on this forum concerned with the dearth of talent amongst modern classical composers. I wonder whether they really are out there, it's just that there is no market for them. Pop audiences aren't interested, and classical audiences expect modern classical compositions to be avant guarde, so there is no demand for composers who write in old-fashioned styles, and it is the styles of the past that have merit, more than anything.

For instance, there is the brilliant pianist Robert Levine, who can improvise very well, and he has himself composed many pieces in the style of Mozart, pieces with great merit. But there is no real demand for them. Modern classical composers are expected to be continually avant-guarde and modern.

This is absolutely fascinating Steppenwolf,
A big thankyou for the interesting link, please do let us know about the CD when you receive it. I dare say that the film would have featured ' The Kynges Ballade', written by Henry V111 himself. You can listen to the entire song on mp3 download.
Henry has his very own site of course: http://www.chivalry.com/cantaria/lyrics/pasttime.html






[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 27, 2004).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by spaceray:

Was it not Jane who was laid to rest beside the King?

Muriel

Muriel, you are right it was Jane who died in 1537 after twelve days later from giving birth to Henry's only legitimate son. She was buried in Windsor Castle to be joined later by the King.
Here's is another website for anyone who is interested. It gives a brief biography of each wife. http://www.larmouth.demon.co.uk/sara...ves/wives.html

Regards,


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'Truth and beauty joined'

[spaceray]

But I was wrong about Steppenwolf's movie,what I saw round about the mid seventies was a documentary of the Lives of the Kings and Queens of England presented by Antonia Fraser.Or so my friend and fellow madrigalist remembers.We were gaga over Elizabethan music at the time and learned a lot of it.

Speaking of modern composers writing in the style of the Elizabethans didn't Peter Warlock (I've forgotten his real name)combine Delius with Tudor secular music to come up with some interesting songs?

[Amalie]

Originally posted by spaceray:
But I was wrong about Steppenwolf's movie,what I saw round about the mid seventies was a documentary of the Lives of the Kings and Queens of England presented by Antonia Fraser.Or so my friend and fellow madrigalist remembers.We were gaga over Elizabethan music at the time and learned a lot of it.

Speaking of modern composers writing in the style of the Elizabethans didn't Peter Warlock (I've forgotten his real name)combine Delius with Tudor secular music to come up with some interesting songs?

Philip Heseltine whose alias has a suitably medieval ring to it as Peter Warlock, was self-taught, though he was in contact with Delius from 1910, and was a friend of Van Dieren, Moeran and Lambert. Under his original name Heseltine he wrote on music and edited English works of the Elizabethan Era. As Warlock he produced a large output of songs. Warlock's real genius weas an ability to create profound expression in short musical structures.
These pieces are the quintessence of Englishness.
It is sad that they seem to have been forgotten.
Thanks for reminding us Muriel.


[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 27, 2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by spaceray:
But I was wrong about Steppenwolf's movie,what I saw round about the mid seventies was a documentary of the Lives of the Kings and Queens of England presented by Antonia Fraser.Or so my friend and fellow madrigalist remembers.We were gaga over Elizabethan music at the time and learned a lot of it.

Speaking of modern composers writing in the style of the Elizabethans didn't Peter Warlock (I've forgotten his real name)combine Delius with Tudor secular music to come up with some interesting songs?

Peter Warlock alias Philip Heseltine (whose excellent quote is on the home page of this site) was particularly interested in Tudor composers. His very fine Capriol suite is based on Elizabethan melodies.

Here is another quote of his: " Not so very long ago I should have laughed if anyone had suggested that in 1919 I should go to a concert and be enchanted, overwhelmed by a Beethoven symphony after the performance of a new Delius work had left me cold and disappointed! Yet this happened last saturday at Queens Hall: and I do not yet know whether my sadness at the decline of one whose earlier works have moved me perhaps more than any other music, and indeed do still, is not compensated by the intense delight that has followed upon my ears becoming suddenly opened to the splendour of Beethoven! I am more than ever convinced that young people ought to begin with the moderns and work back through them to the older masters."



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'Man know thyself'