Messing with Beethoven!

[Jin]

Is the worry that if works are not performed as is, eventually there will no longer be accurate recordings or performances "available"? It seems that, in other genres at least, performers do covers all the time without threatening the integrity of the original, at least in a case where the original is near Beethoven caliber. In the other cases, it seems appropriate that the better cover eclipses the original.

Or is the worry more on abstract grounds? ie it just shouldn't be done.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Jin:
Is the worry that if works are not performed as is, eventually there will no longer be accurate recordings or performances "available"? It seems that, in other genres at least, performers do covers all the time without threatening the integrity of the original, at least in a case where the original is near Beethoven caliber. In the other cases, it seems appropriate that the better cover eclipses the original.

Or is the worry more on abstract grounds? ie it just shouldn't be done.

I think it is just a matter of correctly interpreting the music - from the ancient Greeks to the 18th century improvisation played a part in the actual performance of music. Composers even as late as Mozart would expect a soloist to embellish the written score in places (such as the slow movement of a concerto). However with Beethoven improvisation was something separate from the performance of the written music - he even went as far as to incorporate his cadenzas to the 5th concerto into the score as if to reinforce the point. Composers from Beethoven on were far more precise in their musical directions in a score and it is clear they expected the music to be performed exactly as written. Pianists such as Liszt continued the early tradition to much hostile reaction from professional musicians such as Chopin (as Chaszz pointed out).

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think it is just a matter of correctly interpreting the music - from the ancient Greeks to the 18th century improvisation played a part in the actual performance of music. Composers even as late as Mozart would expect a soloist to embellish the written score in places (such as the slow movement of a concerto). However with Beethoven improvisation was something separate from the performance of the written music - he even went as far as to incorporate his cadenzas to the 5th concerto into the score as if to reinforce the point. Composers from Beethoven on were far more precise in their musical directions in a score and it is clear they expected the music to be performed exactly as written. Pianists such as Liszt continued the early tradition to much hostile reaction from professional musicians such as Chopin (as Chaszz pointed out).

Just to mention it in this connection, in India there is a great tradition of classical music which is improvised upon and continually reinterpreted by the performer. In the sixties these Indian ragas were popular in concerts by sitar player Ravi Shankar and oud player Ali Akbar Khan, because of their influence on the Beatles and so forth. There were many concerts to go to then, but they are still given today. To attend and hear one of these in person is a special experience, if you know for instance that the the theme of the raga was composed centuries ago, and the interpreter is part of a living tradition and is a composer as much as a performer. This may be as close as we can get today to hearing a composer improvise in a classical tradition, except for jazz.

The harmony is microtonal, in that there are notes 'in between' the notes of the Western scale, but for all that, it is modal, melodic and very accessible to listen to. The raga very gradually builds up speed and tension over many minutes, with a climactic finish.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited February 26, 2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Just to mention it in this connection, in India there is a great tradition of classical music which is improvised upon and continually reinterpreted by the performer. In the sixties these Indian ragas were popular in concerts by sitar player Ravi Shankar and oud player Ali Akbar Khan, because of their influence on the Beatles and so forth. There were many concerts to go to then, but they are still given today. To attend and hear one of these in person is a special experience, if you know for instance that the the theme of the raga was composed centuries ago, and the interpreter is part of a living tradition and is a composer as much as a performer. This may be as close as we can get today to hearing a composer improvise in a classical tradition, except for jazz.

The harmony is microtonal, in that there are notes 'in between' the notes of the Western scale, but for all that, it is modal, melodic and very accessible to listen to. The raga very gradually builds up speed and tension over many minutes, with a climactic finish.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited February 26, 2004).]

This is very true - there is a huge tradition and culture of eastern music which is difficult for our western ears to adapt to precisely because of the difference in tuning. Actually the Eastern system of microtones is far more natural than our artificial equal temperament but to us sounds 'out of tune'.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[King Stephen]

Originally posted by Peter:
Beethoven doesn't need another view to his music! How anyone can be so presumptious as to play around with the greatest set of variations known to man (along with Bach's Goldberg) and think they can offer something new is beyond me! What next, Eminem and the 9th symphony?

I'm all for improvisation and if this Uri Caine loves jazzing up classical themes, fine - I'd have no problem with him or anyone else using say the Eroica theme, but when a complete work is sabotaged it is something else.

Peter, how many times have we heard a work hacked up by a wana-be. I have the Uri Caine cd, I played it once . It now collects dust.
On the other hand I have Vivaldi Violin Concertos arranged by Bach for harpsichord and they are super. But then again you have one master transcribing anothers works. The Diabelli theme when showed to LvB was rejected. It wasn't until almost a year later that B. took up the theme and we now have what some people consider the finist set of variations ever composed. By the way Arthur Rubinstein, we all know what kind of a pianist he was, thought very little of the variations, he went so far a to say B. had lost it. So..... another personal opinion to ponder over.
Steve

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:
This is very true - there is a huge tradition and culture of eastern music which is difficult for our western ears to adapt to precisely because of the difference in tuning. Actually the Eastern system of microtones is far more natural than our artificial equal temperament but to us sounds 'out of tune'.

Peter, maybe it was because I was young in the 'halcyon' sixties, but I found very little difficulty in adjusting to the Indian scale. It seemed to me some of the basic relationships among tonic, dominant and subdominant that we are used to were there, and determined many of the themes and passages. The sitar particularly is a beautiful instrument to listen to. I could follow and enjoy the ragas without much difficulty. Has anyone else had that experience?