Messing with Beethoven!

[Peter]

http://www.cleveland.com/entertainme...1708141380.xml

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'Man know thyself'

[Gurn Blanston]

Jeez, Louise! I understand what he is saying about improvising etc., but why in the concert hall, why lend it credence like that? In a club it could only raise consciousness, in a hall, only the opposite. I particularly enjoyed the part in the story that said that "the orchestral part will stay intact as Beethoven wrote it..." Huh??


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Chaszz]

Why not? The original composition is still there in many recorded versions for anyone who wants to hear it that way, and someone who wants to hear this jazzman play variations on it can attend the concert, and anyone who prefers not to can avoid it. What does it harm? And it may do some good.

One could possibly say that when classical music moved beyond improvisation, that jazz came along to fill that particular void. And that when jazz became as intellectual and off-putting as atonal music, that rock came along to fill that void.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Why not? The original composition is still there in many recorded versions for anyone who wants to hear it that way, and someone who wants to hear this jazzman play variations on it can attend the concert, and anyone who prefers not to can avoid it. What does it harm? And it may do some good.

I'm not sure Beethoven would agree, he was furious with Czerny for altering a composition only slightly! Actually this sort of thing does do harm in the long run and is a contributory factor to the ever shrinking classical cd selections in stores. I'm all for Jazz and improvisation (there should be more of it in recitals!), but a composer such as Beethoven who went to great lengths to ensure correct performance of his works surely deserves a little more respect?

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

I agree. All this messing about with composer's music can't be good in the long run. Beethoven was very exact in the way he wanted his music performed and it's a shame that the modern world is changing it and working it over to such degrees.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Chaszz]

Played as Beethoven wrote it, his wishes should be respected. Played as a source for variation, it seems to me it is treated as subject matter for improvisation and not a finished composition. A different intent, as with any variarions.

[Pastorali]

I agree with Chaszz.

I'm not sure, what B. would say about it. At his lifetime, Jazz was far beyond of any imagine.

In opposite to the other abuses in sort of hip-hop, trash, death, or what ever, a respectablly work with Beethoven's music can be very exciting, I think.

But of course, I would never prefer it to the original, just see it as a new view – so why not?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Played as Beethoven wrote it, his wishes should be respected. Played as a source for variation, it seems to me it is treated as subject matter for improvisation and not a finished composition. A different intent, as with any variarions.

Eh? Play it as he wrote it and respect his wishes or play around with it and do what you like? Why not just take the Diabelli theme and improvise jazz variations on it, but leave Beethoven's name out of the equation!

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Pastorali:
I agree with Chaszz.

I'm not sure, what B. would say about it. At his lifetime, Jazz was far beyond of any imagine.

In opposite to the other abuses in sort of hip-hop, trash, death, or what ever, a respectablly work with Beethoven's music can be very exciting, I think.

But of course, I would never prefer it to the original, just see it as a new view – so why not?

A new view of what? Beethoven? Diabelli?

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'Man know thyself'

[urtextmeister]

I think Beethoven is rolling over in his grave when this Diabelli experiment is performed. For that matter, he probably rolled over when I played Fur Elise at my first piano recital. It doesn't really matter. His work belongs to us now.

This project could be good or bad, depending on how it is done. If it is bad, people will forget about it. If it's good, then more power to him.

I think the Liberace ten-minute version of Tchaikowsky's celebrated concerto is bad. I think some film composers' reworkings of classical themes is good. There is a long tradition of composers using music by other composers. A good tune is a good tune. The interesting thing about this project is he is not so interested in the tune as Beethoven's variations on the tune. Hmmm. I would like to hear what this guy does.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:

...The interesting thing about this project is he is not so interested in the tune as Beethoven's variations on the tune...

Urt...
And so it must be, since the tune itself is virtually nothing, as B readily admits, the whole project would have been long forgotten if not for B's participation. But then again, the whole reason that the theme lent itself so well to variation writing is exactly because it was essentially a drab and featureless tune on its own, or so I am given to understand, not being a composer myself. However, the overall tenor of what I have gathered as a concensus so far, that perhaps B should be left out of it, my heart says "indeed!", but my head says "well,then who would listen, and perhaps I have something to say, even at this late date". Too late to get it into the book though



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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Amalie]

We went to a very moving performance of Mozart's Requiem which was played by the London Symphony Orchestra and coducted
Franz Welser Most.
And at the end they performed the Ave Verum, which is a tradition in Vienna, after Mozart's requiem.


[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 23, 2004).]

[Pastorali]

Originally posted by Peter:
A new view of what? Beethoven? Diabelli?

Just an other view to the music. I really would give it a chance, is it well done, it has it's rights to be. Also B. took other people's music to work with it. (did somebody not?)

[Pastorali]

Originally posted by Amalie:

We went to a very moving performance of Mozart's Requiem which was played by the London Symphony Orchestra and coducted
Franz Welser Most.
And at the end they performed the Ave Verum, which is a tradition in Vienna, after Mozart's requiem.


[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 23, 2004).]

Amalie
Sounds well! I'm wondering, how you liked the Sibelius symphony, they played? I have seen recently a performance of a S. symphony on TV, which was very nice.

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Pastorali:
Amalie
Sounds well! I'm wondering, how you liked the Sibelius symphony, they played? I have seen recently a performance of a S. symphony on TV, which was very nice.

The concert opened with Sibelius 4th Symphony, which to me seems a bit wierd and experimental with dark undertones, though I did find myself liking parts of it.
I do like other works by Sibelius such as his symphonic poem - Nightride & Sunrise, the 2nd, 6th and 7th Symphony.




[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 24, 2004).]