Authentic page mp3s - piano sonata Op.28

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Joy:
Anybody interested on reading further about Beethoven's views on pianos can check out this article:
http://collection.nlc-bnc.ca/100/202...kett/steve.htm

Joy,
That was great! Thanks for the link. Anyone going there, be sure to check the link that this guy is replying to also, it has some good info and great pictures.




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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I don't think they are played well here, irregardless of which instrument is used. As for the rest of what you say, it makes sense.

Chaszz,
Yeah, I don't disagree with you, although I have other CD's by this guy, and he really can play, I think he is handicapped by the instrument here as much as anything, but that's simply my opinion, not a debate starter for gosh sakes!




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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:
Anybody interested on reading further about Beethoven's views on pianos can check out this article:
http://collection.nlc-bnc.ca/100/202...kett/steve.htm

Had a quick glance through and he say things I've said dozens of times myself here, eg about the Broadwood key span and his disatisfaction with the English actioned pianos (from which todays are developed) and his preference for the Viennese Streicher brand. He certainly preferred the light Viennese action. So there are many aspects of the modern instrument that do not fit in with B's own stated preferences.

His comments about the Streicher are particularly interesting as there are almost no recordings using this brand of fp today, I have only Melvyn Tan playing a replica, whereas there are very many using Grafs and Walter originals or copies.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 23, 2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Chaszz,
Yeah, I don't disagree with you, although I have other CD's by this guy, and he really can play, I think he is handicapped by the instrument here as much as anything, but that's simply my opinion, not a debate starter for gosh sakes!

Well I have the complete set on the fp by Badura Skoda. He plays about 6 pianos in these recordings and it is clear he is happier with some than with others. For instance with the 5 octave models he seems to be struggling far more with the Walter than with the Schantz. There is a 6 octave model by Haska of Vienna that gives him trouble too. I accept he is not as fluid with the model for op28 than, say, the Graf piano he uses for the late sonatas.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 23, 2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Had a quick glance through and he say things I've said dozens of times myself here, eg about the Broadwood key span and his disatisfaction with the English actioned pianos (from which todays are developed) and his preference for the Viennese Streicher brand. He certainly preferred the light Viennese action. So there are many aspects of the modern instrument that do not fit in with B's own stated preferences.

I think the last paragraph of that article is particularly interesting and relates to my earlier point - it may be the reason we are not being so appreciative. You keep referring to the modern instrument, by which you mean Steinway - it is a huge generalisation but I accept it is the standard instrument used in concert performance. Not even Steinways all sound alike though!

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited February 24, 2004).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well I have the complete set on the fp by Badura Skoda. He plays about 6 pianos in these recordings and it is clear he is happier with some than with others. For instance with the 5 octave models he seems to be struggling far more with the Walter than with the Schantz. There is a 6 octave model by Haska of Vienna that gives him trouble too. I accept he is not as fluid with the model for op28 than, say, the Graf piano he uses for the late sonatas.

Rod,
Interesting. There are just so many options in the instruments back then, I can't imagine that all of them are perfect! It stands to reason that he would use the earlier model though for a sonata as early as this. Perhaps we merely have to accept the fact that this is what it sounded like, and get on with it.


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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Rod,
Interesting. There are just so many options in the instruments back then, I can't imagine that all of them are perfect! It stands to reason that he would use the earlier model though for a sonata as early as this. Perhaps we merely have to accept the fact that this is what it sounded like, and get on with it.

Well it could be that Badura-Skoda was less familiar with some of the instruments than with others, presuming they had rather different handling characteristics.

In my selection of the tracks I try to provide as near contemporary a piano to the music as possible, for example I could have provided mp3s for the moonlight played on an 1820's Graf but chose the 5 octave Walter that B would have been familiar with at the time.

I can easily accept that this is what they sounded like, I like the sound!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think the last paragraph of that article is particularly interesting and relates to my earlier point - it may be the reason we are not being so appreciative. You keep referring to the modern instrument, by which you mean Steinway - it is a huge generalisation but I accept it is the standard instrument used in concert performance. Not even Steinways all sound alike though!

Well this is true not all modern pianos sound alike, and is why when interviewed (I read a book of transcripts of these interviews) Schnabel stated he prefered a German piano (the model escapes me for the moment) to the Steinway because the latter couldn't 'sing' so sweetly. But on the other hand, I have heard no modern piano that can equate sonically to any fortepiano.

PS I've seen, but not heard, the Pasqualati Haus Streicher mentioned in the article. It certainly looked in no fit condition for playing to me.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 24, 2004).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well this is true not all modern pianos sound alike, and is why when interviewed (I read a book of transcripts of these interviews) Schnabel stated he prefered a German piano (the model escapes me for the moment) to the Steinway because the latter couldn't 'sing' so sweetly. But on the other hand, I have heard no modern piano that can equate sonically to any fortepiano.

That is an absurd statment on the face of it. I have heard many modern pianos that sounded better than the fortepiano that played the Presto of the Moonlight on the recent MP3 here. Some in friends' living rooms. Some of that foretpiano-playing was just plain noise!

Another aspect of this whole thing: You match the fortepiano to those is use when a particular Beethoven sonata was written, and insist the works were conceived strictly for these instruments. Yet if B. could barely hear these instruments, he may as well have been writing for a piano of his imagination.
Matching them this way makes even less sense than if he weren't deaf.


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited February 24, 2004).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well this is true not all modern pianos sound alike, and is why when interviewed (I read a book of transcripts of these interviews) Schnabel stated he prefered a German piano (the model escapes me for the moment) to the Steinway because the latter couldn't 'sing' so sweetly. But on the other hand, I have heard no modern piano that can equate sonically to any fortepiano.

PS I've seen, but not heard, the Pasqualati Haus Streicher mentioned in the article. It certainly looked in no fit condition for playing to me.

Rod, I read that somewhere too, I think the piano was a Bosendorfer actually. And have also read that many contemporary pianists don't want to play a Steinway. However, in all fairness, they are not advocating a return to fortepianos either!! In re your earlier response to mine, I agree, I like the sound too, I think it is a nice change of pace. I listen to classical music for an average of 12 hours per day, and to hear only the same rendition repeated endlessly would put me back to where I was with pop music before I abandoned it. Sonic variety is a necessary part of enjoyment for me.



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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Rod, I read that somewhere too, I think the piano was a Bosendorfer actually. And have also read that many contemporary pianists don't want to play a Steinway. However, in all fairness, they are not advocating a return to fortepianos either!! In re your earlier response to mine, I agree, I like the sound too, I think it is a nice change of pace. I listen to classical music for an average of 12 hours per day, and to hear only the same rendition repeated endlessly would put me back to where I was with pop music before I abandoned it. Sonic variety is a necessary part of enjoyment for me.

Yes Bosendorfer (a Viennese make) is my favourite modern instrument and I think perfectly suited for the classical composers.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
That is an absurd statment on the face of it.

If it is absurd tell me what modern instrument sounds anything like a fortepiano?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Yes Bosendorfer (a Viennese make) is my favourite modern instrument and I think perfectly suited for the classical composers.

No it was Bechstein I think for Schnabel, definitely not Bosendorfer.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:
No it was Bechstein I think for Schnabel, definitely not Bosendorfer.

Rod,
You are probably right, I think now it was Bechstein, although I agree with Peter, I really like the sound on the recordings I have heard that were made with a Bosendorfer. They have a much more singing tone than a Steinway. I'm sure some of that is the player too, but I don't know how much.



------------------
Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Rod,
You are probably right, I think now it was Bechstein, although I agree with Peter, I really like the sound on the recordings I have heard that were made with a Bosendorfer. They have a much more singing tone than a Steinway. I'm sure some of that is the player too, but I don't know how much.

I can can now confirm for certain it was Bechstein. I know of the Bosendorfer's qualities, but even this instrument I tire of, perhaps if they lowered the pitch, and ditched the equal temperament...and changed the action...like the old Bosendorfers!
http://www.ashburnham.org/Frederickc...collection.htm

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 24, 2004).]