Authentic page mp3s - piano sonata Op.28

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:
Seeing as it was my birthday this weekend and my family gave me a great party, I treated myself and did not do any dinners or housework. I did find some time to listen to the Pastoral one of my favourite Piano Sonatas. I enjoyed this recording for the most part especially the rondo, but to my ear the authentic piano sometimes does not have the power I usually like however I did like the tempo. Perhaps it did sound as if the pianist was banging away at the keys at times and his playing didn’t seem to bring out any emotion in me. Regarding authentic instruments vs. modern, I’m taking a course in Beethoven and his music and the teacher made the comment that if Beethoven were alive today he thinks that Beethoven would love the sound of the modern instruments being that they bring out so much more power of the music and the sound is better. (His words).

Well the recording sounds powerful enough on my speakers, perhaps you should turn up the volume!?

Concerning your teachers comments, I'dbe greatly surprised if he has heard any of B's music on the fortepiano. Also a piano teacher's opinion will never be unbiased, they will never critisise the instrument (the pf) that is giving them a living in favour of an instrument (the fp) most of them will never be able to afford and would require from themselves a totally new technique in playing and teaching.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 22, 2004).]

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
Concerning your teachers comments, I'dbe greatly surprised if he has heard any of B's music on the fortepiano.


I'd be greatly surprised if he hadn't - Joy is referring to a composer, Robert Greenberg
who is a Professor at the San Francisco Conservatory of Music, where he chaired the Department of Music History and Literature.

Also a piano teacher's opinion will never be unbiased, they will never critisise the instrument (the pf) that is giving them a living in favour of an instrument (the fp) most of them will never be able to afford and would require from themselves a totally new technique in playing and teaching.

Your arguments were lost back in the 1860s.



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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:


I'd be greatly surprised if he hadn't - Joy is referring to a composer, Robert Greenberg
who is a Professor at the San Francisco Conservatory of Music, where he chaired the Department of Music History and Literature.

On the other hand, professor Malcolm Bilson is a professional fortepianist. Why is that so?

Originally posted by Peter:


Your arguments were lost back in the 1860s.

If the argument was lost why do we have so many professional fortepianists today who no doubt disagree with you in addition to myself and some others I know? I have a good friend in Paris who is a professional concert pianist who plays a lot of Beethoven, who also has a huge Geman grand piano (of the modern variety) in her living room. She accepts openly that the old pianos are better suited for Beethoven's music but financial and logistical considerations prevent her from ever becomming a fortepianist.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 23, 2004).]

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:


On the other hand, professor Malcolm Bilson is a professional fortepianist. Why is that so?



Brendel is a professional pianist who specialises in Beethoven (on modern pianos), why is that so?




If the argument was lost why do we have so many professional fortepianists today who no doubt disagree with you in addition to myself and some others I know? I have a good friend in Paris who is a professional concert pianist who plays a lot of Beethoven, who also has a huge Geman grand piano (of the modern variety) in her living room. She accepts openly that the old pianos are better suited for Beethoven's music but financial and logistical considerations prevent her from ever becomming a fortepianist.



If the argument wasn't lost back then, how come the modern piano superceded the old fp in the first place?

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
[

Brendel is a professional pianist who specialises in Beethoven (on modern pianos), why is that so?


You're missing the point, I'm talking about the teaching profession. For Bilson the argument is obviously not over.




If the argument wasn't lost back then, how come the modern piano superceded the old fp in the first place?

To cater for the tastes of the pianists and performing conditions of the time. There is nothing in Beethoven's output that cannot be handled effectively by at least the best the instruments of his time.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
To cater for the tastes of the pianists and performing conditions of the time. There is nothing in Beethoven's output that cannot be handled effectively by at least the best the instruments of his time.

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who had doubts about the instrument in these sonatas, and even more so, the performer's interpretations.

But one major point is being lost here. Very major. Rod has maintained that these period instrument tracks would lay all controversy to rest. That hasn't happened at all, has it? So the virtues of the instrument are NOT 'self-evident', but merely leave the door open for further controversy. That alone proves that there is nothing automatically self-evident in this supposed period instrument superiority.

I'm not familiar with what Beethoven said on this issue in 1826 and would someone please quote it for me? Thanks.


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited February 23, 2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who had doubts about the instrument in these sonatas, and even more so, the performer's interpretations.

But one major point is being lost here. Very major. Rod has maintained that these period instrument tracks would lay all controversy to rest. That hasn't happened at all, has it? So the virtues of the instrument are NOT 'self-evident', but merely leave the door open for further controversy. That alone proves that there is nothing automatically self-evident in this supposed period instrument superiority.

I'm not familiar with what Beethoven said on this issue in 1826 and would someone please quote it for me? Thanks.


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited February 23, 2004).]

Well it will be self evident to those who think Beethoven's piano music is the pinnacle of this genre and is really the only music of this type worth listening to. But I suspect that condition may only apply to my good self, but I hope not, at least here! Those who at heart really prefer Rachmaninov, please do not impose your lumbering instruments on me!

Ask Peter for the quote, I bet he has it permanently on his computers clipboard! But in short he said the instrument was inadequate. Peter is not so forthcomming with Beethoven's more positive comments on the instrument. But the adequacy or otherwise of the old instruments is not the issue, it's their appropriateness to Beethoven compositions in relation to the modern counterpart, which is a quite different machine. I obviously would say the piano is still inadequate to this day.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
To cater for the tastes of the pianists and performing conditions of the time. There is nothing in Beethoven's output that cannot be handled effectively by at least the best the instruments of his time.

I haven't denied this - my case has never been anti fp. I am actually defending the use of modern piano as well and it is on that point alone that we differ. I am aware that listening on these crappy speakers is hardly doing justice to these mp3s and I am also aware of the difference that exists between individual fps. Do you agree that well-made replicas are preferable to worn-out originals?

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'Man know thyself'

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, I enjoy hearing these, for their historical value if nothing else. I love B's piano sonatas no matter what they are played on, short of a kazoo, I suppose, as long as they are played well. You guys don't seem yet to have tumbled to the fact that you will never change Rod's mind, and he will never change yours. Why not simply enjoy the opportunity to hear these, even if you consider them anachronistic claptrap they are still interesting. Rod, you are simply intractable, but I do appreciate the opportunity you offer,


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
... Do you agree that well-made replicas are preferable to worn-out originals?

Well in theory a perfect replica should be as good as the original model when it was first made. I have heard some good replicas that have similar sound characteristics to the originals I've heard on which they are based. The brands like Walter and Graf have distinctive sounds. Bearing this in mind if the original was not in perfect playing order and the replica was, it would be quite acceptable to use the replica. But it is nice to have an original with most of the original parts, if there were only minor faults in an original I would still like to hear it.

The thing is even replicas are few and far between and colossaly expensive as modern manufacturers want nothing to do with the fortepiano. They are all hand made by craftsmen today, in B's time Grafs were mass produced my comparison.

PS if you have crappy speakers I recomend you use headphones, even in-ear types are better than a lot of built-in PC speakers.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 23, 2004).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Well, I enjoy hearing these, for their historical value if nothing else. I love B's piano sonatas no matter what they are played on, short of a kazoo, I suppose, as long as they are played well. You guys don't seem yet to have tumbled to the fact that you will never change Rod's mind, and he will never change yours. Why not simply enjoy the opportunity to hear these, even if you consider them anachronistic claptrap they are still interesting. Rod, you are simply intractable, but I do appreciate the opportunity you offer,

I don't think they are played well here, irregardless of which instrument is used. As for the rest of what you say, it makes sense.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well it will be self evident to those who think Beethoven's piano music is the pinnacle of this genre and is really the only music of this type worth listening to. But I suspect that condition may only apply to my good self, but I hope not, at least here! Those who at heart really prefer Rachmaninov, please do not impose your lumbering instruments on me!

Ask Peter for the quote, I bet he has it permanently on his computers clipboard! But in short he said the instrument was inadequate. Peter is not so forthcomming with Beethoven's more positive comments on the instrument. But the adequacy or otherwise of the old instruments is not the issue, it's their appropriateness to Beethoven compositions in relation to the modern counterpart, which is a quite different machine. I obviously would say the piano is still inadequate to this day.

I myself prefer hearing Beethoven's piano music to that of other composers, but that's not the same as saying all other composers' music, (besides Handel's) is not worth listening to. I don't think you will find a second vote for that here, unless I'm mistaken.

If Beethoven said the instruments were inadequate in 1826, that's pretty near the end of his life and a fairly final judgement, I would think. And I think it's fairly obvious also that it was his conception of piano music that originally pushed the development of the piano in the direction that it did take.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well the recording sounds powerful enough on my speakers, perhaps you should turn up the volume!?

Concerning your teachers comments, I'dbe greatly surprised if he has heard any of B's music on the fortepiano. Also a piano teacher's opinion will never be unbiased, they will never critisise the instrument (the pf) that is giving them a living in favour of an instrument (the fp) most of them will never be able to afford and would require from themselves a totally new technique in playing and teaching.

[/b][/QUOTE]

Ha! Ha! That is so funny! Like I didn't think of that! My speakers are like Peter's not the best. Maybe I will have to buy myself some earphones! It really doesn't matter though what teacher I would have mentioned as I'm sure you would have found something wrong with him. You certainly do stand up for your convictions and agruments passionately I'll give you that! It doesn't mean that the rest of us are wrong though, teachers included! I do think you just like a good old fashioned heated dabate though!



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Joy]

Anybody interested on reading further about Beethoven's views on pianos can check out this article:
http://collection.nlc-bnc.ca/100/202...kett/steve.htm

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:


If Beethoven said the instruments were inadequate in 1826, that's pretty near the end of his life and a fairly final judgement, I would think. And I think it's fairly obvious also that it was his conception of piano music that originally pushed the development of the piano in the direction that it did take.

Well by 1826 I think Beethoven was really finished with the piano altogether from a compositional point of view, and he was too deaf to hear his new Graf piano which was a monster compared to the models of his youth.

My own impression of the modern piano has never been good, I call it a Jazz instrument as that music seems to fit its nature most naturally. The pianos in Vienna of circa 1850 were still very different from todays sonically, so when exactly do you say they 'came of age'?


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin