Authentic page mp3s - piano sonata Op.28

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

Originally posted by Rod:
If these 'pianists' you are seeking have no experience of the fortepiano then I fail to see how their input in particular can offer any further insight. It is hard enough to get people to comment here as it is with restricting the discussion further to just pianists! PS the piano is in tune, perhaps it is Serkin's that isn't?

1. If one instrument were a tuba and the other a fortepiano then I might see the logic of this argument. When the second instrument is fairly closely related to the first, since it is in fact its descendent, I think that people who have learnt to play one are at least as qualified to comment on a performance on the other, as a listener who has learnt to play neither.

2. I wonder why it so hard to get people to comment here since you have always declared that proper period performances would prove themselves manifestly superior as soon as listened to.

3. Were we not impartial colleagues here, met in a disinterested spirit dedicated only to truth and not personal advantage, I might imagine that you were implying that I cannot tell the difference between a tuned and untuned piano. However, since this is not possible, I have banished the thought from my mind.

1. Playing a fortepiano is not quite like playing the modern piano, there are many physical differences that have to be accommodated on the fp - the action, the pedals, the keys themselves are different. You can't just switch back and forth between the two.

2. not the performances, but the instruments will be proved the best suited to the music. The performances themselves are of secondary importance here, even if they are very good as a lot of them are in my opinion.

3. The modern piano is in any case almost always tuned in a manner that Beethoven would not have experienced in his lifetime.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:

1. Playing a fortepiano is not quite like playing the modern piano, there are many physical differences that have to be accommodated on the fp - the action, the pedals, the keys themselves are different. You can't just switch back and forth between the two.

When I was in San Jose, California, visiting the Beethoven Museum I had the privilege of playing their 1790's piano and you are right it is very different than the piano I have at home. The keys have a different touch and I couldn't get used to the knee pedals instead of the foot pedals which I'm used to, rather awkward indeed. I'm sorry to say I haven't had time to listen to this week's Mp3's either. I shall have to make time!

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited February 20, 2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:
When I was in San Jose, California, visiting the Beethoven Museum I had the privilege of playing their 1790's piano and you are right it is very different than the piano I have at home. The keys have a different touch and I couldn't get used to the knee pedals instead of the foot pedals which I'm used to, rather awkward indeed. I'm sorry to say I haven't had time to listen to this week's Mp3's either. I shall have to make time!

Yes, all things considered I would say these old pianos are more difficult to play. I think you will have time this weekend to listen.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Yes, all things considered I would say these old pianos are more difficult to play. I think you will have time this weekend to listen.

Have you tried playing them? I would of thought they were different rather than more difficult. The technical and musical difficulties do not vanish on a modern piano. In some ways a lighter touch would make rapid passages easier - what is easier on a modern piano is to sustain long notes in slow movements. Not sure how you know what Joy's doing this weekend, but I should have time to listen tomorrow!

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'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:
Have you tried playing them? I would of thought they were different rather than more difficult. The technical and musical difficulties do not vanish on a modern piano. In some ways a lighter touch would make rapid passages easier - what is easier on a modern piano is to sustain long notes in slow movements. Not sure how you know what Joy's doing this weekend, but I should have time to listen tomorrow!

I hope to read some comments by other listeners. Leaving aside the instrument, it honestly doesn't seem to me this performer is that good, because of a tendency to bang on the keys, and also some artificial unfelt retards.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I hope to read some comments by other listeners. Leaving aside the instrument, it honestly doesn't seem to me this performer is that good, because of a tendency to bang on the keys, and also some artificial unfelt retards.

Yes there are things I don't like particularly in the Rondo - I think he relies too much on the mute pedal to achieve his soft passages. The rhythm does seem a little unsteady in the opening phrase and occasionaly the fast semiquavers are hurried, particularly in the fortissimo climax where to my ear it sounds muddled and actually lacking a first beat in the bar. The part playing in the fugal episode is a little suspect in places as well, but this could be down to the weak tone of the treble not being able to sustain properly, however if so he should compensate by bringing in the under parts softer.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Yes there are things I don't like particularly in the Rondo - I think he relies too much on the mute pedal to achieve his soft passages. The rhythm does seem a little unsteady in the opening phrase and occasionaly the fast semiquavers are hurried, particularly in the fortissimo climax where to my ear it sounds muddled and actually lacking a first beat in the bar. The part playing in the fugal episode is a little suspect in places as well, but this could be down to the weak tone of the treble not being able to sustain properly, however if so he should compensate by bringing in the under parts softer.

..and yet the overall effect to my ears is far more engaging with this piano than all of the (i suppose) 'urtext' Steinway performances of the Rondo that I have possessed over the years. You can pick out faults in this bar and that phrase but I've read more damning reviews of better known pianists in this regard, and what about when the whole concept of the interpretation is at fault as is often the case with modern performances I've heard, every single phrase in every single bar is incorrect! But at the end of the day, as I've said, it is the instruments I'm primarily interested in with this excercise. People can argue all day about the interpretation but they'll be missing the point.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 21, 2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Have you tried playing them? I would of thought they were different rather than more difficult. The technical and musical difficulties do not vanish on a modern piano. In some ways a lighter touch would make rapid passages easier - what is easier on a modern piano is to sustain long notes in slow movements. Not sure how you know what Joy's doing this weekend, but I should have time to listen tomorrow!

Well, I've read comments from performers to the effect that they are more difficult. I was working on the assumption that Joy will have an estimated 1 hour to spare after doing all the dinners and housework.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
..and yet the overall effect to my ears is far more engaging with this piano than all of the (i suppose) 'urtext' Steinway performances of the Rondo that I have possessed over the years. You can pick out faults in this bar and that phrase but I've read more damning reviews of better known pianists in this regard, and what about when the whole concept of the interpretation is at fault as is often the case with modern performances I've heard, every single phrase in every single bar is incorrect! But at the end of the day, as I've said, it is the instruments I'm primarily interested in with this excercise. People can argue all day about the interpretation but they'll be missing the point.

Well others are interested in the performance rather than the instrument and I beg to differ about all modern interpretations being wrong - your dogmatic views on authentic instruments accounts for this perception. As to the instrument - I don't like the weak tinny sound of the treble. It may be authentic but a modern piano sounds infinitely better. I know you choose to interpret Beethoven's 1826 comments on this issue as irrelevant, but I think he hit the nail on the head.

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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:
Yes there are things I don't like particularly in the Rondo - I think he relies too much on the mute pedal to achieve his soft passages. The rhythm does seem a little unsteady in the opening phrase and occasionaly the fast semiquavers are hurried, particularly in the fortissimo climax where to my ear it sounds muddled and actually lacking a first beat in the bar. The part playing in the fugal episode is a little suspect in places as well, but this could be down to the weak tone of the treble not being able to sustain properly, however if so he should compensate by bringing in the under parts softer.

I am listening to the rondo right now. While I do like the tone of the piano (but I like the modern pianos as well--it's different to me, not so much an issue of which sound is better) but the climax parts are a bit muddy, due, I think to a combination of the instrument and the performer. There is a level of excitement in the performance that outweights some of the inconsistencies of his playing. I like the tempo. I would have to hear a performance of this on a modern piano to really compare well.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well others are interested in the performance rather than the instrument and I beg to differ about all modern interpretations being wrong - your dogmatic views on authentic instruments accounts for this perception. As to the instrument - I don't like the weak tinny sound of the treble. It may be authentic but a modern piano sounds infinitely better. I know you choose to interpret Beethoven's 1826 comments on this issue as irrelevant, but I think he hit the nail on the head.

Not irrelevant, but uncertain and in any case if you are right my position is that Beethoven's critisism applies equally to today's pianos, so tired and lead-laden do they sound.

Your critism of the piano I take note, but the factors you so look for in the instrument are in my opinion not particularly important with regard to Beethoven specifically. With regard to the other pianists, their music isn't good enough in comparison with Beethoven's for me to be unduely conserned about whatever pianos theie music should be played on

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

I would have to hear a performance of this on a modern piano to really compare well.

Well I am surprised you have not heard this piece before, this is one of the better known sonatas.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:

Not irrelevant, but uncertain and in any case if you are right my position is that Beethoven's critisism applies equally to today's pianos, so tired and lead-laden do they sound.

Your critism of the piano I take note, but the factors you so look for in the instrument are in my opinion not particularly important with regard to Beethoven specifically. With regard to the other pianists, their music isn't good enough in comparison with Beethoven's for me to be unduely conserned about whatever pianos theie music should be played on

Well it will be interesting to hear the slow movements of Op.106 and Op.111 when we get there. With regard to other pianists I meant those who play Beethoven on a modern instrument and wonder why the instrument is more important than the interpretation to you? I have heard finer performances of Op.28 on a modern instrument by grade 8 students at my local competitive music festival than the one presented here on fp. As Sorrano pointed out the playing is quite muddy in places.



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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited February 22, 2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well it will be interesting to hear the slow movements of Op.106 and Op.111 when we get there. With regard to other pianists I meant those who play Beethoven on a modern instrument and wonder why the instrument is more important than the interpretation to you? I have heard finer performances of Op.28 on a modern instrument by grade 8 students at my local competitive music festival than the one presented here on fp. As Sorrano pointed out the playing is quite muddy in places.

These particular interpretations are not of the utmost importance because these are not the only pianists in the world! The unusual factor in these recording are the instruments.

The slow movements you mention can be executed with ease on the Graf pianos, but they are too long to be used for the mp3 page.

The current quest for clarity is misguided in my opinion, no doubt partly due to the thick lumbering tone of the average modern piano. It so often kills all the sence of drama. Remember Beethoven himself was accused of lack of clarity. Sorrano makes a point when he mentions the level of excitement, excitement is not something you get from typical perfomances these days, as the (modern) instrument is incapable of conveying it.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 22, 2004).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:
I was working on the assumption that Joy will have an estimated 1 hour to spare after doing all the dinners and housework.

Seeing as it was my birthday this weekend and my family gave me a great party, I treated myself and did not do any dinners or housework. I did find some time to listen to the Pastoral one of my favourite Piano Sonatas. I enjoyed this recording for the most part especially the rondo, but to my ear the authentic piano sometimes does not have the power I usually like however I did like the tempo. Perhaps it did sound as if the pianist was banging away at the keys at times and his playing didn’t seem to bring out any emotion in me. Regarding authentic instruments vs. modern, I’m taking a course in Beethoven and his music and the teacher made the comment that if Beethoven were alive today he thinks that Beethoven would love the sound of the modern instruments being that they bring out so much more power of the music and the sound is better. (His words).



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'Truth and beauty joined'