The 5th Symphony - Powerful stuff!

[Joy]

We've been discussing Beethoven's 5th in another topic and I heard two versions of it this week on the radio and thought I would pass along these two quotes:

Hector Berlioz talked a friend of his into going to a concert to hear Beethoven’s 5th in 1828. Afterwards he found his friend and asked him what he thought. His friend said, “O, let me get out. I must have some air. It’s amazing! Wonderful! I was so moved and so disturbed that when I came out of the box and tried to put on my hat I couldn’t find my head. Now let me be. We’ll meet tomorrow.” Then they met the next day and he said, “Music like that ought not to be written!” and Berlioz replied, “Don’t worry, Master, there’s not much danger of that.”

and

E. T. Hoffmann, German novelist and critic, wrote this review in 1810. He began with a comparison, “Joseph Haydn is music full of love and happiness,” but he added. “that you could listen for hours and find no suffering or pain.” And then there’s Mozart, “Mozart can envelope the listener in fear and give a premonition of the infinite but he can’t make you tremble to your very core. Beethoven’s 5th opens the realm of the colossal and immeasurable for us. Radiant beams shoot through the deep night of this region and we become aware of gigantic shadows rocking back and forth which close in on us and destroy all within us except the pain of endless longing.”

Powerful words for a powerful piece.



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[spaceray]

These are two great quotes,thanks Joy.

[v russo]

along with being all of these wonderful things, let us not forget that Beethoven was the first composer to truly let us into his personal world, his psycological state, his extremes of emotions. The fifth is also different in that it envelopes all of these elements. If the third brought about a new form and breadth of emotion in classical music, the fifth points forward to the future, the future of his own later period, the future of Freud and his discoveries and the implementation of these ideas in the music of the second vienesse school and the whole music of the 20th century, for that matter.

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v russo

[This message has been edited by v russo (edited February 15, 2004).]

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Joy:
... I heard two versions of it this week on the radio and ...

Do you mean the extended and non-extended Scherzo, or is there another diference?

[Gurn Blanston]

Joy,
Enjoyed your quotes too. One point about the first, the Berlioz quote, is that the man involved (wish I could remember his name but my "Old Timer's Disease" is kicking up this AM) was a professor of music in Paris and a staunch critic of innovation in music in general and of Beethoven in particular, so this was a doubly rewarding coup for old Hector!


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Joy]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
Do you mean the extended and non-extended Scherzo, or is there another diference?

I meant that I heard two different recordings of this piece in the same week. One was by Conductor John Elliot Gardiner with the Orch Revolutionnaire et Romant and the other was the Atlantic Symphony Orchestra.


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[Joy]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Joy,
Enjoyed your quotes too. One point about the first, the Berlioz quote, is that the man involved (wish I could remember his name but my "Old Timer's Disease" is kicking up this AM) was a professor of music in Paris and a staunch critic of innovation in music in general and of Beethoven in particular, so this was a doubly rewarding coup for old Hector!

I believe you are right Gurn. I heard these quotes on the radio before they played the syphony and they just referred to the man as Berlioz's friend.



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[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Joy:
I meant that I heard two different recordings of this piece in the same week. One was by Conductor John Elliot Gardiner with the Orch Revolutionnaire et Romant and the other was the Atlantic Symphony Orchestra.

And if you didn't realize it, Gardiner goes back to the begining of the Scherzo after the trio, making it Scherzo-Trio-Scherzo-Trio-Scherzo (A-B-A-B-A), which was the new modification Beethoven brought to the symphonie form in his 4th (to those who say it has no value, a valley between two giants) which had already brought a big step forward from the Eroica.
The Atlanta SO version most likely do not, for I have 5 recordings of the 5th here and only the period instruments versions (Gardiner's ORR and Hogwood's AAM) do the Scherzo ABABA, the others (Anton Nanut, Karajan and Kurt Masur) do ABA.

This is actually one of those mistakes which have lasted more than intended or what it's acceptable. Beethoven was induce by the publisher (if I recall correctly, Breitkopf) to reduce the Scherzo size because it was too big (a 8 minute scherzo in that time was indeed unexpected in a 35 minute symphonie) and Beethoven accepted it, removing the Da Capo at the end of the fugal Trio. This lasted about a year, when he decided backwards, to restore the ABABA form because ABA made the Trio meaningless, why play something which is so quick it won't even stuck?, but again the publisher disliked the idea and the Scherzo remained like that, against B's will.

And indeed the ABABA is much more effective and pleases me much more (I'm one of those guys who goes for the first thoughts of the composer).

[This message has been edited by Rutradelusasa (edited February 17, 2004).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:


And indeed the ABABA is much more effective and pleases me much more (I'm one of those guys who goes for the first thoughts of the composer).

[This message has been edited by Rutradelusasa (edited February 17, 2004).]

Thanks for the explaination, R! I'm also one who goes for the thoughts of the composer!

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[King Stephen]

Joy,
Enjoyed your post and was wondering if one of the performances of the 5th you heard was with Bejamin Zander and the Philharmonia Orchestra. I just finished listening to this Cd and I would like to quote Andrew Porter who wites for The New Yorker, "If Mr. Zander is right, we have been hearing the music of the greatest composer only in misrepresentation." Has anyone else heard this cd.

[Joy]

Originally posted by King Stephen:
Joy,
Enjoyed your post and was wondering if one of the performances of the 5th you heard was with Bejamin Zander and the Philharmonia Orchestra. I just finished listening to this Cd and I would like to quote Andrew Porter who wites for The New Yorker, "If Mr. Zander is right, we have been hearing the music of the greatest composer only in misrepresentation." Has anyone else heard this cd.

I have not heard the Benjamim Zander version. The two versions I heard was by Conductor John Elliot Gardiner with the Orch Revolutionnaire et Romant and the other was the Atlantic Symphony Orchestra. Of these two I would have to say I prefered the ASO, it seemed to me that Gardiner really rushed through the 1st movement. Too fast for me. It seemed he couldn't wait to get it over with as the ASO took it's time and was a more powerful version.



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