Beethoven & Mozart (the music and the mind)

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Amalie:
Steppenwolf,
What you say I am sure is absolutely right.
However, the fact remains that as a human being as opposed to being one of the greatest composers that ever lived, Wagner really was not a very nice man in spite of what you say.

There was certainly a unpleasant side to his character, of that there can be not doubt. But the mistake is to take those bad things and use them to portray Wagner the man as some sort of monster, as biased biographers such as Robert Gutman have done. The truth was more complex, and our indignation at his anti-semitism, his egoism, his ruthless ambition etc. can blind us to the very endearing, positive qualities he also possessed.

If he really was a one-sided monster, as so many seem to believe, I don't think anyone would have liked him at all. Those who came in contact with him tended to either love him or hate him, but the former no less than the latter. As one of potentially hundreds of examples, take the conductor Herman Levi (a Jew), who wrote a letter to his father in which he said that he got down on his knees everyday and thanked God for allowing him to know such a wonderful, kind, extraordinary man, and that he counted his friendship with Wagner as one of the most precious of his life.


[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited February 17, 2004).]

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Peter:

On Wagner's music I can generally agree and even on some of the good points in Wagner's character - however what about that notorious pamphlet 'Judaism in Music'?

Wagner did not invent anti-semetism. Among the composers we can also include others, such as Chopin. And there are several nasty, anti-semetic comments that appear in some of Mozart's letters. How often is this fact repeated?

Their is no excuse for Wagner's anti-semitism. It was indeed a very nasty quality. However it is wrong to equate it with the genocidal anti-semitism of the Nazis, which was in another league entirely. Wagner had throughout his life many close friends who were Jewish. This fact is presented not to excuse his anti-semitism, but merely to demonstrate that it was, as with so many characteristics of Wagner's character, inconsistent. And it was clearly not in the same league as the anti-semitism of Hitler. Indeed, there is evidence that Wagner came to regret his anti-Jewish comments later in life.

[Chaszz]

I know you guys have been waiting for the other shoe to drop, and here it is.

My opinion is that Wagner had real personality problems. The tendency among great artists to sometimes act like a little child, which is probably intertwined with the childlike capacity of a genius to see and feel more fully than the ordinary person (and which we can see in both Beethoven and Mozart), was in Wagner quite extreme. It led to dreams of grandeur and feelings of persecution which were in the event both fully realized. His treatment of benefactors such as Meyerbeer and Wesendonck was worse than shabby. One must be a meglomaniac to carry on an adulterous affair right under the noses of both betrayed spouses - one of whom is your benefactor and the other your wife - with no sense of shame. Something important is missing here. His relationship with money was pathological like a gambler's addiction. He ran up debts with no intention of paying and then if he came into money suddenly would spend it all on luxuries and wind up more in debt than before. Even the generosity of King Ludwig was barely able to keep up the the composer's extravagance.

I regard him as more sick than evil. And Steppenwolf is right that an industry has grown up which savages Wagner with no regard for his good and generous qualities. And that he is no more responsible for the Holocaust than many, many others in what was virtually a total atmosphere of antisemitism in Europe after 1850, which even included many prominent Jews who bought the whole thing and were ashamed of their own background. Many other intense antisemites were only lucky in that they didn't happen to be first class composers whose music the psychopath Hitler fell in love with.

One poster here lamented the Romantics' turning art into mainly a matter of emotion. I think this is just a matter of greater emphasis and that all art depends on emotion. I don't think that people would bother with it so intensely if it was mainly for a sense of order, or for dialectic, or for information. Although emotion is often 'opposed' to form in esthetics, form also provides strong emotion. And if the importance of emotion is granted, I think Wagner has very few peers in his ability to profoundly move people who are attuned to his music.

Another thing I enjoy about him in his quality of being interesting. Most great artistic geniuses are somewhat one-dimensional in their interests and accomplishments, albeit they are profound, but Wagner's interests are all over the place. He revolutionized Western harmony, and brought the orchestra to its extreme in size and lushness, inventing several instruments in the process. He was perhaps the main influence on the profession of conducting. He was a dramatist and poet, and wrote all his own opera librettos. He was one of the first modern artists to see primitive mythology as a wellspring of the unconscious, an interest that became very important in painting, dance and literature as well as music. He was the first dramatist to dim the lights in the theatre, and he anticipated cinema in many ways. He was virtually the only librettist of opera to dramatize philosophic concepts. One can find many interesting observations on religion, philosophy, Shakespeare, Greek tragedy, the whole range of German literature, painters such as Titian, Raphael, Rembrandt and Holbein, history, science, etc., etc. in his writings and Cosima's diaries. His prose writings fill a long bookshelf and most were published and sold well in his lifetime. His mind and art fascinated the great philospher Nietzsche. The research he did into the historical and mythological backgrounds of his plots was near encyclopedic. 'Die Meistersinger', as only one example, is almost a textbook on the practices, forms and traditions of the medieval German musical guilds. It's also an inexhaustible fount of melody in itself, a tribute to Bach's counterpoint, and a pretty good Shakespearean-type situation comedy, all at one and the same time.

Steppenwolf is right in that that he was the single most important influence on music after Beethoven. He was in the newspapers continually and was trailed by reporters asking for quotes. He dominated the whole artistic mileu of the late nineteenth century, which was full of geniuses, and every important artist, not only musicians, had to in some way grapple with his example. James Joyce, T.S. Eliot, Thomas Mann and W.H. Auden are only a few of the major writers who later pondered and reacted to his work. After he died in Venice in 1873, the whole route of his funeral train back to Germany was lined with large stunned crowds that could not believe that this titan, this almost institution, had died.

You don't find too many artists, even geniuses, with minds like this. He was wrong about a lot of things and right about a lot of others. I think he is one of the most fascinating individuals who ever lived, but of course the capstone is his music, otherwise he'd no doubt be forgotten. And for his music one can forgive him a lot, if need be. I don't know that the good things he did don't far outshine the bad.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited February 17, 2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
Wagner did not invent anti-semetism. Among the composers we can also include others, such as Chopin. And there are several nasty, anti-semetic comments that appear in some of Mozart's letters. How often is this fact repeated?

Their is no excuse for Wagner's anti-semitism. It was indeed a very nasty quality. However it is wrong to equate it with the genocidal anti-semitism of the Nazis, which was in another league entirely. Wagner had throughout his life many close friends who were Jewish. This fact is presented not to excuse his anti-semitism, but merely to demonstrate that it was, as with so many characteristics of Wagner's character, inconsistent. And it was clearly not in the same league as the anti-semitism of Hitler. Indeed, there is evidence that Wagner came to regret his anti-Jewish comments later in life.

I agree with this and I have never been one of those who blamed Wagner for the holocaust! In any case what is of most concern to me is the music rather than the man and I agree with your assessmnet of his achievements. Incidentally have you seen the epic 9 hour Wagner film with Richard Burton and what are your thoughts on it? Certainly an incredible cast and I found myself enjoying it more on a 2nd viewing.

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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I know you guys have been waiting for the other shoe to drop, and here it is.


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited February 17, 2004).]

Well said! As much as I detest the man himself (in my own weakness) I find that I cannot escape his music nor his role in the history of music. It is a force to be reconned with and its influence is wide felt.

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Peter:
I agree with this and I have never been one of those who blamed Wagner for the holocaust! In any case what is of most concern to me is the music rather than the man and I agree with your assessmnet of his achievements. Incidentally have you seen the epic 9 hour Wagner film with Richard Burton and what are your thoughts on it? Certainly an incredible cast and I found myself enjoying it more on a 2nd viewing.

This takes me back, I remember this brilliant film coming out in 1983 but not being able to see it at the time. In my opinion Burton was one of the greatest actors of all time.
Does anyone know whether this film is now avalaible on DVD?

Many Thanks.

[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 18, 2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Amalie:

This takes me back, I remember this brilliant film coming out in 1983 but not being able to see it at the time. In my opinion Burton was one of the greatest actors of all time.
Does anyone know whether this film is now avalaible on DVD?

Many Thanks.

[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 18, 2004).]

I have it on video - rather 3 videos as it is 9 hous long! Burton really is amazing as Wagner, especially in the later years. The whole cast is amazing and includes Geilgud, Olivier and Richardson. Have you tried Amazon or ebay?

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'Man know thyself'

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Peter:
I have it on video - rather 3 videos as it is 9 hous long! Burton really is amazing as Wagner, especially in the later years. The whole cast is amazing and includes Geilgud, Olivier and Richardson. Have you tried Amazon or ebay?

Thankyou Peter,
It must be a unique film with all the great actors together, and particularly poignant as Burton died I think a year later. My search on Amazon was unsuccessful, will try again.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Amalie:

Thankyou Peter,
It must be a unique film with all the great actors together, and particularly poignant as Burton died I think a year later. My search on Amazon was unsuccessful, will try again.

Amalie, I've seen this also and I think it is quite good. There are often used copies in good shape, for sale on eBay.

Chaszz

[Joy]

I've seen this also a long time ago egged on by my brother who is a huge Wagner fan. I remember it was quite good and I would love to see it again to refresh my memory a bit.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[RH]

1. Beethoven was cool, but not perfect

i just think Beethoven has low EQ (emotionally) but he is genius,
do not forget those illness and disablity
hit his life, those thing will not make
a person in good mood.
but in other way, those suffering (in his heart) and lonliness, abandonment really make him to work out great music.
i did not know if he had a good childhood or teen, what was his family life during his early stage ? how did his father and mother treat him ?

[Opus131]

Originally posted by RH:
1. Beethoven was cool, but not perfect

i just think Beethoven has low EQ (emotionally) but he is genius,
do not forget those illness and disablity
hit his life, those thing will not make
a person in good mood.
but in other way, those suffering (in his heart) and lonliness, abandonment really make him to work out great music.
i did not know if he had a good childhood or teen, what was his family life during his early stage ? how did his father and mother treat him ?

His father was a failure, a drunk and a deterrent figure.

He sought to teach Beethoven from an early age, but his lessions were approximative (he was a very bad musician) and he was crude and very severe to his son, often critisizing his precoce talent whilst scorning his improvisations at the keyboard. Everytime he was caught making music by his father he was always warned to stop, that he wasn't read for that tinkering yet.

I'm sure he wasn't as bad as portraited in the movies (he didn't savagely beat his children, at least the we know of), but he was propably cause of great pain for a child who was too young to know such torments.

His mother was quite alright, a very strong character that was loved by her children and respected by those close by (she was given a surpise party in her honor once, which should prove she was well received by the community and had quite a few friends).

After a while, Johan presence became of secondary importance as he spent more time drinking with his friends then at home, which left Beethoven free to develop on his own.

His childhood may have been a difficoult one, but his teenage years were propably among the happiest of his life, whereas he became aware of his talents and started to work his way into the life of a musician within the electorate. He worked very actively during this period, made quite a few friends (at one point he became a member of a touring young orchestra, that must have been quite an experience for him), and his life was generally more or less similar to that of other talented teenagers.



[This message has been edited by Opus131 (edited February 18, 2004).]

[RH]

THanks Joy
it explain some question about his character.

[RH]

THanks Opus131