Authentic page mp3s - piano sonatas Op.27

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
Well, Chaszz, that's all very well, but I'm afraid there won't be much further discussion on it, because after reading that post, Rod will have a heart attack.

The fact that Chaszz thinks op27/2 is cronologically the first Beethoven work that is worthy of being considered a 'repertiore' piece on any piano says enough to prevent the heart attack.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
I disagree, but the Schantz copy you refer to as as toy piano is played in probably the worst accoustic I have heard on a recording, compare it to the more colorful sound of the earlier Walter piano. I suggest you make the effort to present your Serkin recording - if it is as good as you say it will be available on CD too. Typically my exprience with the modern piano for this piece is that the work is performed in a rather understated manner in the quest for clarity.

I'm unenthusiastic about taking a financial bite out of my current CD collecting interests to buy a great performance with which I'm totally familiar and can hear anytime I want to on my turntable, in order to put it up on the web and have someone catagorize it as bland and formulaic. An attractive proposition?

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
The fact that Chaszz thinks op27/2 is cronologically the first Beethoven work that is worthy of being considered a 'repertiore' piece on any piano says enough to prevent the heart attack.

I didn't say a 'repetoire' piece but 'central to the repertoire,' by which I mean the greatest of the great, among the limited number of works you would take with you to that proverbial desert island. And I do not include the first movement in that evaluation, good as it is!



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited February 12, 2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I didn't say a 'repetoire' piece but 'central to the repertoire,' by which I mean the greatest of the great, among the limited number of works you would take with you to that proverbial desert island. And I do not include the first movement in that evaluation, good as it is!

But you have never struck me as being the greatest of Beethoven fans in any case Chaszz.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
He may have a heart attack, but if I know Rod he will not expire without recovering and giving me a strong response first. I think he is now down to hinting that I am perhaps not an 'unconditioned' listener, as if such a calumny could be justly pointed in my direction!

I'm not even sure I know what he means by 'unconditioned' or its presumptive opposite 'conditioned'. Does it mean I've been 'conditioned' by great performances on good instuments as opposed to ones with unfelt exaggerated false retards on ricky ticky ones? If so I proudly plead guilty to being 'conditioned.'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I'm not even sure I know what he means by 'unconditioned' or its presumptive opposite 'conditioned'. Does it mean I've been 'conditioned' by great performances on good instuments as opposed to ones with unfelt exaggerated false retards on ricky ticky ones? If so I proudly plead guilty to being 'conditioned.'

By 'unconditioned' I mean someone whe is without any preconceptions on the matter. I class myself in this category, having discovered Beethoven without any prior education or interest in Classical music or the nature of the instruments. I can state that I personally have spent a small fortune on Beethoven recordings on the modern piano.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 12, 2004).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
By 'unconditioned' I mean someone whe is without any preconceptions on the matter. I class myself in this category, having discovered Beethoven without any prior education or interest in Classical music or the nature of the instruments. I can state that I personally have spent a small fortune on Beethoven recordings on the modern piano.

I myself discovered classical music without having any preconceptions on the matter. I have often discovered things that way, having no preconceptions on topics in which I am not yet interested, because of that lack of interest. If I had preconceptions I would have some sort of interest and could not discover the subject, it already being discovered.

Conversely, though I have had no preconceptions or interest in the fortepiano I remain in that position now even though I have discovered it. I have not spent a small fortune on recordings of it and will likely continue to have not done so for quite awhile, after the experience of the Presto of the Moonlight.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
... I have not spent a small fortune on recordings of it and will likely continue to have not done so for quite awhile, after the experience of the Presto of the Moonlight.

Well, I've got 4 or 5 other versions of this Presto on the fortepiano that you may prefer! That you are using this particular effort as an excuse to write off all performances on the fortepiano says enough for me. I would like your impression of the op26 tracks, but perhaps that piece is not repertoire enough for you to have listened to them?



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, I've got 4 or 5 other versions of this Presto on the fortepiano that you may prefer! That you are using this particular effort as an excuse to write off all performances on the fortepiano says enough for me. I would like your impression of the op26 tracks, but perhaps that piece is not repertoire enough for you to have listened to them?

Reminds me of a certain advert, 'calm down dear!' You can't expect everyone to share your unbounded enthusiasm for the FP - indeed as you mentioned in an earlier post Czerny didn't either. This debate is actually not new, (and I don't mean on this forum!) it was very current in the mid 19th century. You know my views on this so I don't intend opening that old can of worms again - I appreciate the opportunity of hearing FP performances (as I did in Vienna), they offer a different perspective, but quite frankly I see no reason to be dogmatic about it.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Reminds me of a certain advert, 'calm down dear!' You can't expect everyone to share your unbounded enthusiasm for the FP - indeed as you mentioned in an earlier post Czerny didn't either. This debate is actually not new, (and I don't mean on this forum!) it was very current in the mid 19th century. You know my views on this so I don't intend opening that old can of worms again - I appreciate the opportunity of hearing FP performances (as I did in Vienna), they offer a different perspective, but quite frankly I see no reason to be dogmatic about it.

My experience in this case is that the typical modern performance lover seems to appreciate rather less of Beethoven's output yet seems happy to critisise a solution that allows a further appreciation of all of Beethoven's music than is currently the case under the status quo. Think about the colossal amount of Beethoven music that is hardly ever performed whilst so much 3rd rate stuff from other composers is.

Concerning Czerny at the time he made the comment the pianos in Vienna were still very different to those of today. If Beethoven had lived 20 years longer the best instruments still had Viennese actions, for example. You know I have heard live an original 1854 Streicher that sounds like nothing else!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 13, 2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:


Concerning Czerny at the time he made the comment the pianos in Vienna were still very different to those of today. If Beethoven had lived 20 years longer the best instruments still had Viennese actions, for example. You know I have heard live an original 1854 Streicher that sounds like nothing else!

Well yes it's quite feasable Beethoven could have lived until 1854 - if the 1854 Streicher sounds like nothing else and is obviously an improvement on earlier FP models, why use the earlier ones?



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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well yes it's quite feasable Beethoven could have lived until 1854 - if the 1854 Streicher sounds like nothing else and is obviously an improvement on earlier FP models, why use the earlier ones?

I didn't say it was an improvement, it just sounded unique - ie though a very late piano by fp standards, no nearer to the modern piano sonically.

My point about Czerny was really about other pianists being more fussy than Beethoven.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 13, 2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I didn't say it was an improvement, it just sounded unique - ie though a very late piano by fp standards, no nearer to the modern piano sonically.

My point about Czerny was really about other pianists being more fussy than Beethoven.

Your comment 'sounds like nothing else' implies that it sounds better than earlier models - if this is the case then surely we would do better to hear Beethoven's music performed on this instrument to give a fairer comparison with modern instruments?


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

Your comment 'sounds like nothing else' implies that it sounds better than earlier models - if this is the case then surely we would do better to hear Beethoven's music performed on this instrument to give a fairer comparison with modern instruments?

No, my comment was mean to be taken literally, not as an Americanism, in the context that the piano was just different. The music (some light B variations) sounded good on this piano because the tone was so colourful but the true dynamic capabilities were not being tested on this occasion, so I have to reserve final judgement. The action was incredibly heavy which lead me to believe the instrument was one of the few experimental English actioned models Streicher made, I got this impression from the physical appearance of the piano too.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 13, 2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:

My point about Czerny was really about other pianists being more fussy than Beethoven.

Czerny's remark that he didn't know how Beethoven could have played on such an instrument implies a little more than being fussy - there must have been genuine grounds for him to make such a remark and his comments at the very least suggest that he was not happy with the earlier fps.

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'Man know thyself'