Authentic page mp3s - piano sonatas Op.27

[Chaszz]

The Presto from the Moonlight is to my ears very inadequate on this fortepiano, when compared with a modern piano. The instrument simply hasn't got the tonal strength to project a full bodied version of this magnificent music, so that when it is 'forte' it is often making clattery noise and not music. Also I find the interpretation lacking - the retards in the first half and the middle of the movement sound hammy and foppish. Also the player sounds as if the speed of the movement is a little too much for him and his hands and fingers are cramping. Perhaps it is the instrument and not the musician which is giving this impression.

To put this performance up against a classic such as the great Rudolf Serkin performance on the modern piano I listened to for years, could not even be seriously considered, to my mind. I only own this on LP so unfortunately cannot put it up for comparison on the web.

I think the sound of the fortepiano is also lacking in the other three movements, expecially in the first movement of the Moonlight. But curiously enough that one is strangely moving, more so that in other performances I've heard in the last few years. I would put that down to the talent of the performer and not the instrument. As even a Greek sculpture without its nose and arms can be moving.

I read on another board recently that Beethoven was always asking his piano makers to make better, fuller, richer instruments, and I can now see why.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited February 11, 2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
That such a notation sounds ludicrous on a modern instrument supports my earlier comment that the music is scored bearing the fortepianos qualities in mind. One must also consider the tempo chosen in relation to the length of the sustained notes - I've heard much quicker renditions on this movement than the current mp3, both on modern and Classical pianos. Of course on the other hand we could perhaps ask Mr Badura-Skoda to hit the treble keys a little harder!

Regardless of pedalling (as this is never an exact science and open to different interpretations - Beethoven was said to use far more than is indicated in his scores), long notes in a slow melody do not really work well on the old FP - it is a fact that the modern instrument is capable of a more sustained legato, which I find preferable in movements such as this.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited February 12, 2004).]

[Chris]

[Henry Kissinger]This isn't a productive area of discussion.[/Henry Kissinger]

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited February 11, 2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Regardless of pedalling (as this is never an exact science and open to different interpretations - Beethoven was said to use far more than is indicated in his scores), long notes in a slow melody do not really work well on the old FP - it is a fact that the modern instrument is capable of a more sustained legato, which I find preferable in movements such as this.

The 'pedal' I am concerned with in this case is the moderator (mute), I'm all for more use of raised dampers. I checked Badura-Skodas recording and indeed he plays the whole movement with the strings muted. In fact his continues in this manner for a few bars of the second until he decides it fit to release it and all of a sudden the piano (especially the treble) springs back to life. I presume he did this to create a smoother transition, but as I have said before I'm against playing whole movements in this manner.

I agree that long slow movements are less effective on the fp, but in my opinion Beethoven never wrote a slow movement that outstretches the capabilities of at least the best pianos available at the time. The tendency to stretch the music (and not just adagios) on the modern piano is one of the things that provoked my interest into fortepianos in the first place.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 12, 2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
The Presto from the Moonlight is to my ears very inadequate on this fortepiano, when compared with a modern piano. The instrument simply hasn't got the tonal strength to project a full bodied version of this magnificent music, so that when it is 'forte' it is often making clattery noise and not music. Also I find the interpretation lacking - the retards in the first half and the middle of the movement sound hammy and foppish. Also the player sounds as if the speed of the movement is a little too much for him and his hands and fingers are cramping. Perhaps it is the instrument and not the musician which is giving this impression.

To put this performance up against a classic such as the great Rudolf Serkin performance on the modern piano I listened to for years, could not even be seriously considered, to my mind. I only own this on LP so unfortunately cannot put it up for comparison on the web.

I think the sound of the fortepiano is also lacking in the other three movements, expecially in the first movement of the Moonlight. But curiously enough that one is strangely moving, more so that in other performances I've heard in the last few years. I would put that down to the talent of the performer and not the instrument. As even a Greek sculpture without its nose and arms can be moving.

I read on another board recently that Beethoven was always asking his piano makers to make better, fuller, richer instruments, and I can now see why.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited February 11, 2004).]

I think the current presto is as strong as any I've heard, it is the colour across the midrange and bass that adds drama to the music not found on modern pianos. The accoustic of the recording is very poor I accept. I have explained the adagio elsewhere in this chain.

By the time I have finished with the last bagatelles I am convinced the 'unconditioned' listener will accept that, all things considered, these are the best instruments for the job. Perhaps I should have used my recording played on a Graf for you, a much bigger instrument made over 20 years after the music was written?

PS I suspect Beethoven was less fussy about his instrumements than many of the big name performer of the last few decades. Czerny commented once, looking at a piano played by Beethoven many years earlier, that he didn't know how Beethoven could have played on such an instrument.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 12, 2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
[Henry Kissinger]This isn't a productive area of discussion.[/Henry Kissinger]

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited February 11, 2004).]

What are you talking about? This is the most interesting discussion here for weeks.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

Except that we've had it about twenty times already!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
Except that we've had it about twenty times already!

I could say the same about 90% of the things I read here. If you are not interested there is no need for you to read it. I suspect for many people hearing the music performed on these instruments will be a new experience.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

This was just a debate between you and Peter. I don't really care if you want to have it again, I was just noticing that how no matter what happens, period piano/Beethoven's wishes/Beethoven's intentions discussions always seem to factor out to the same arguments and even phrases that get repeated over and over.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Ahmad:
The moonlight sonata was the first Piano work that attracted me toward Beethoven's music..Although they have become cliches,the moonlight adagio and the 5th symphony will always be among my classical music favourites..

For good luck ,Nowadays I'm learning the moonlight adagio on the piano, so I 'll be grateful if pianists here give me some advices about playing it....


[This message has been edited by Ahmad (edited February 11, 2004).]

First of all don't fall into the trap of thinking it's easy - it's not! Be aware of your dynamic range, the movement rises barely above pianissimo, don't overdo the crescendos. The triplet accompaniment needs very careful control with correct accentuation (first of each bar stronger, and first of each triplet stronger than the others). Over this you have the problem of sustaining the long melody notes - practice this piece first at the slightly quicker tempo of Andante (mastering all these details) before attempting to pace yourself at Adagio.

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'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Chris:
Except that we've had it about twenty times already!

Well, Chris, for me personally at least, it's the first time that this choronology has begun to get into a work which can be considered central to the repertoire in my opinion. So that the comparison between the historical instrument and the modern instrument is really meaningful and not more or less academic. And I consider that the modern piano has won hands down, and actually that this 'Toonerville trolley' version of the movement which was posted, sounding like a poor toy piano with its clattering sound and artificial ham-acting retards, cannot even seriously be put four levels below the performance by Serkin on the modern instrument which I mentioned.

[Chris]

Well, Chaszz, that's all very well, but I'm afraid there won't be much further discussion on it, because after reading that post, Rod will have a heart attack.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Well, Chris, for me personally at least, it's the first time that this choronology has begun to get into a work which can be considered central to the repertoire in my opinion. So that the comparison between the historical instrument and the modern instrument is really meaningful and not more or less academic. And I consider that the modern piano has won hands down, and actually that this 'Toonerville trolley' version of the movement which was posted, sounding like a poor toy piano with its clattering sound and artificial ham-acting retards, cannot even seriously be put four levels below the performance by Serkin on the modern instrument which I mentioned.

I disagree, but the Schantz copy you refer to as as toy piano is played in probably the worst accoustic I have heard on a recording, compare it to the more colorful sound of the earlier Walter piano. I suggest you make the effort to present your Serkin recording - if it is as good as you say it will be available on CD too. Typically my exprience with the modern piano for this piece is that the work is performed in a rather understated manner in the quest for clarity.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Chris:
Well, Chaszz, that's all very well, but I'm afraid there won't be much further discussion on it, because after reading that post, Rod will have a heart attack.

He may have a heart attack, but if I know Rod he will not expire without recovering and giving me a strong response first. I think he is now down to hinting that I am perhaps not an 'unconditioned' listener, as if such a calumny could be justly pointed in my direction!

[Chris]

Well, if I may make a relevent comment here...

Although I don't think much of these period instrument recordings in general, I will say that in some of the recordings, it has been interesting to hear pieces being played faster than what I would have considered possible for a human being, even on a fortepiano.