A Question about Beethoven and others education...

[Beyond Within]

How much were Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Bach...ect. educated in music before they went and composed on their own?

How does their education compare to that of modern composers who obtain degrees in music composition from Universities?

[Peter]

Just take a look at this list of Beethoven's teachers and the emminent names amongst it :

Tobias Pfeiffer : Piano(1779)
F.G.Rovantini : Violin(1779-81)
Franz Ries : Violin(1785/6)
W.Koch : Organ(1785/6)
Zenser : Organ(1785/6)
C.G.Neefe : Composition(1781-)
F.J.Haydn : Composition(1792/3)
Schenk : Composition(1793-5)
Albrechtsberger : Composition(1794/5)
Salieri : Vocal composition(1794-1802)
Schuppanzigh : Violin(1794)
Krumpholz : Violin(1795)

Genius will develop naturally anyway regardless of teaching and most great composers learn most by studying the scores of others, but obviously the direction of an able mentor is of great benefit. No composition student with the best tutors and all the degrees in the world can compensate for lack of genius!

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited February 12, 2004).]

[v russo]

Originally posted by Peter:
Just take a look at this list of Beethoven's teachers and the emminent names amongst it :

Tobias Pfeiffer : Piano(1779)
F.G.Rovantini : Violin(1779-81)
Franz Ries : Violin(1785/6)
W.Koch : Organ(1785/6)
Zenser : Organ(1785/6)
C.G.Neefe : Composition(1781-)
F.J.Haydn : Composition(1792/3)
Schenk : Composition(1793-5)
Albrechtsberger : Composition(1794/5)
Salieri : Vocal composition(1794-1802)
Schuppanzigh : Violin(1794)
Krumpholz : Violin(1795)

Genius will develop naturally anyway regardless of teaching and most great composers learn most by studying the scores of others, but obviously the direction of an able mentor is of great benefit. No composition student with the best tutors and all the degrees in the world can compensate for lack of genius!

WELL SAID PETER!



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v russo

[Opus131]

I think nobody can compete with what Leopold Mozart did to his son, quite possibly the best musical education anybody has ever received, is it any wonder Mozart could write an entire symphony in a few slazy afternoons ?!?

Too much emphacy is placed on the concept of 'genious', i think education and commitment play a far greater role, and it has to start as SOON AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Opus131:
I think nobody can compete with what Leopold Mozart did to his son, quite possibly the best musical education anybody has ever received, is it any wonder Mozart could write an entire symphony in a few slazy afternoons ?!?

Too much emphacy is placed on the concept of 'genious', i think education and commitment play a far greater role, and it has to start as SOON AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN.

Education is important, but you can't have a Mozart without genius - Leopold did the same for his daughter Nannerl, yet though highly talented, she was no Wolfgang Amadeus! The greatest teacher in the world can do little with someone of no natural ability. This is a fact our political masters fail to grasp in their misguided desire to send everyone to university.

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'Man know thyself'

[Opus131]

Originally posted by Peter:
Leopold did the same for his daughter Nannerl, yet though highly talented, she was no Wolfgang Amadeus!

No he didn't, women weren't allowed to learn composition, and for all intented purposes she might have not been as talented as his brother anyway.

However, there's a long way from mere talent and 'genious', the way it's conceived by Romantic standards.

Personally, i can accept talent, but i don't beleive in genious. I think the fact Mozart spent 2/3 of his waking time studing music since the age of 4 has a lot more to do with his 'genius' than some sort of innate supernatural ability.

[Joy]

I have to agree that you have to have some natural ability before becoming a virtuoso. Are you saying if you were born with two left feet you can become a great dancer just by going to some dance classes? I don't know but I think it would be awfully difficult to "make a silk purse out of a sow's ear".

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Opus131]

Originally posted by Joy:
I have to agree that you have to have some natural ability before becoming a virtuoso. Are you saying if you were born with two left feet you can become a great dancer just by going to some dance classes? I don't know but I think it would be awfully difficult to "make a silk purse out of a sow's ear".

What do you mean by natural ability ?!? I don't think playing the piano could be classified as a natural ability.

I think the fact Beethoven spent entire nights on the piano since an early age has a lot more to do with him being a virtuoso then any 'natural ability' you can think of.

[Beyond Within]

hahaha that above statement was funny.

I think most people have this misconception that genius is this "all or nothing" trait. Mozart was a musical genius, but that genius helped him execute his ideas much quicker and with less work than most people. But if someone with a little less genius worked a lot harder than Mozart, I am sure the end result would be just as brilliant. There is a balance of many internal forces at play when it comes to artistic "genius". Someone may be brilliant at learning music theory, but without creative inclination it means nothing. Mozart had natural talent, the inclination and the creativity. I dislike it when people apply these terms, you cant quantify things like this. Mozart is Mozart. Why the pretentious adjectives?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
hahaha that above statement was funny.

I think most people have this misconception that genius is this "all or nothing" trait. Mozart was a musical genius, but that genius helped him execute his ideas much quicker and with less work than most people. But if someone with a little less genius worked a lot harder than Mozart, I am sure the end result would be just as brilliant.

So if Salieri had put in a few more hours he might have produced a Don Giovani or a Jupiter symphony? If Hummel hadn't been so lazy he might have written works like the Beethoven 9th symphony and last quartets?



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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Opus131:
What do you mean by natural ability ?!? I don't think playing the piano could be classified as a natural ability.

I think the fact Beethoven spent entire nights on the piano since an early age has a lot more to do with him being a virtuoso then any 'natural ability' you can think of.

I don't know if you are a music teacher or any other type of teacher, but I can assure you that I have had pupils who do have natural musical ability - a natural sense of rhythm (virtually impossible to teach, though it can be improved) and those who don't. There are those who can sight-read with ease and those (even very advanced players of great ability) who find it nigh on impossible no matter how hard they work at it. There are also those who practice for hours and get nowhere. To imply that every one has the same level of potential in everything at birth and all you need to do is to work hard is ridiculous - if you are highly talented then yes you need to work hard to fulfil your potential, if you have no ability, 24 hours slaving a day will produce nothing (except exhaustion!).


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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited February 15, 2004).]

[Opus131]

Originally posted by Peter:

To imply that every one has the same level of potential in everything at birth and all you need to do is to work hard is ridiculous

To imply anybody has any 'natural ability' to engange in unnatural human activities is even more ridiculous.

I once heard a guitar teacher arguing that 'talent' for him was the ability to apply correct practice on a sub-conscious level.

There are many things at work here, many possible explanations to define and quantify
talent and ability, none of them has to rely on the assumption some people are simply armed with a music sight reading organ, and that's that.

True, some people are better then others, but you need to ask yourself why rather then simply discard the whole thing as 'natural ability'.

If we take the example of Robert Fripp against Jimi Hendrix, we have an individual who was completely tone deaf and had the hill conceived idea to play a right handed guitar even thought he was left handed (Robert Fripp), against a person loaded with an incredible amount of talent (Jimi Hendrix).

Upon realizing his limitations, Robert Fripp simply worked harder to understand and overcome his problems, rather then admit he had no talent for it.

In time, he became the greatest virtuoso of the two, out of pure personal efford.

In the case of Salieri, what do we know of his musical education ?!?

Mozart spent each day of his child life studying the music of every major composer known to him and his father, and he had the absolute and utmost understanding of musical composition.

What did Salieri do, exactly ?!?

What about Haydn ?!? His musical education was aproximative at best up untill he was 17, and he was mostly self-taught after that, yet, his relative slow development is blamed on his lack of genious.

Yet, he too was incredibly precoce, so what gives ?!?

Micheal Haydn was said to be even more precoce then his brother, and often bested Joseph in many things during their choir days.

Yet, his music wasn't anything near that of his brother. He often lamented that he didn't have the same motivation and artistic freedom and had no chance to develop like Joseph did.

According to a few biographers however, that wasn't true and he simply didn't have the 'genious' of his brother.

Creativity is a very complex and relative process. Thousands, hell, millions of factors can play a role and one simply needs to be weary of simple connotations such as 'natural genious'.

I personally think it was very interesting of Peter to say no amount of education can substitute genious, because it also seems to imply genious existed only in the 18th and 19th century, apparently. ( I know that is not what he meant but i also realize a lot of people think that way).



[This message has been edited by Opus131 (edited February 15, 2004).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Opus131:
What do you mean by natural ability ?!? I don't think playing the piano could be classified as a natural ability.

I think the fact Beethoven spent entire nights on the piano since an early age has a lot more to do with him being a virtuoso then any 'natural ability' you can think of.

I was merely talking about my own experiences. I can play the piano and read the notes yes for my own amusement and for a hobby because I love to play but not to the extent I would like too. I don't have the 'natural ability' to play like an accomplished pianist. I know my limitations
and I don't think any amount of practicing would allow me to do this. Even if I had a professional teacher I wouldn't ever be a virtuoso.


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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Opus131]

Originally posted by Joy:
I was merely talking about my own experiences. I can play the piano and read the notes yes for my own amusement and for a hobby because I love to play but not to the extent I would like too. I don't have the 'natural ability' to play like an accomplished pianist. I know my limitations
and I don't think any amount of practicing would allow me to do this. Even if I had a professional teacher I wouldn't ever be a virtuoso.

I really don't know how you ever came to that conclution without even going throught hours of practice first, how can you know you are somehow disabled from becoming a virtuoso ?!?



[This message has been edited by Opus131 (edited February 15, 2004).]