Problems with fifth?

[Pastorali]

Following the "listening" topic, it seems to me, the 5th symphony is not one of the most listened works. Though, it is surely one of the famest and most remarkable compositions by Beethoven. I have personally noticed, as much I admire and love this symphony, I listen quite less to it.

Is it possible, that it's too dramatic and enormous, even for us??? An outstanding work for outstanding situations or moods, not very useable for everyday life? Just a thought...

[Chris]

I don't think so. If that could be said about any of Beethoven's works, it would be the Missa Solemnis or the 9th Symphony. Maybe the late string quartets.

I think a more reasonable explanation is that you hear it (or at least the first movement) all the time in commercials, movies, etc. and so you tend to pick other things to listen to when it's totally up to you.

But I don't listen to it any less than the other symphonies, with the exceptions of the 4th and the 7th.

[Peter]

For me it is simply the familiarity of the work - it isn't necessary to listen to music you know very well on a regular basis as it is always with you anyway. So I save works such as the 5th for special occasions like the performance I attended in the Theater an der Wien - that really was magical and like hearing it for the first time again!

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'Man know thyself'

[Pastorali]

Originally posted by Chris:
I don't think so. If that could be said about any of Beethoven's works, it would be the Missa Solemnis or the 9th Symphony. Maybe the late string quartets.

I think a more reasonable explanation is that you hear it (or at least the first movement) all the time in commercials, movies, etc. and so you tend to pick other things to listen to when it's totally up to you.

But I don't listen to it any less than the other symphonies, with the exceptions of the 4th and the 7th.

All the works you mentioned, I would file also under it, but in opposite to the 5th, they give me space to "relaxe". Though the 5th has the cheerful 'Andante con moto', it's somehow otherwise.
For example: When I listen to the 9th. The first two mvmnts are so much "arduously" (of course in a positive way), I'm always glad to take a rest within the Adagio, keeping power for the Presto/Allegro.

Not that I'm disturbed about – not at all – I love this and it's one of the reasons I love B's. music. It's never 'everyday life music' for me, it's always something outstanding.

For good luck, I'm not attacked very much here of such commercials on tv or elsewhere...

[Ahmad]

Originally posted by Pastorali:
All For good luck, I'm not attacked very much here of such commercials on tv or elsewhere...

And it's the same for me here also. The fifth is my favourite (althogh many would prefer the 9th). It's the melodrma which makes Beethoven one of the immortal characters in human history.

[This message has been edited by Ahmad (edited February 08, 2004).]

[mrfixit]

I think the problems lies with society . Not the 5th symphony. If you listen to louds of music by other composers, and then return to the 5th symphony i think you can find a new appreciation for it. It can be so sinister so hopefull(So many things to me so i wont name them all). Its ironic one of the most unique peices of music ever can be seen as so cliche. Thats why i get pissed off when i see it over used. I fact i think it should be even banned from movies lol. Well since a deadman doesnt have any copyright over his stuff there is nothing to be done.

[Chaszz]

For me the main problem with the 5th Symphony has always been that the public knows the first four notes of the first movement so well, but I feel the the sublime part of the symphony is the last movmeent, and the first 8 or 12 or so bars of this are worthy of universal dissemination and yet are unknown by most. Sort of an irony.

Of course, as Peter said here once, the manner in which the first four notes are widely known is very superficial. But the last movement is so great that even known only superficially, those notes could help change the world. Or such was my fantasy once anyway.

A very similar irony to me is in the Moonlight Sonata, where the theme of the first movement is known to most, but the unbelievable and incomparable power is in the third movement. Not a world-changing kind of power in this case though.

[Steppenwolf]

Whenever I listen to the fifth, I skip the first movement and go straight to the second. I am sick of the first movement - although as a piece of music it is wonderful it is spoiled by having become a cliche. It features excessively in the media, and, as noted on a previous thread, the theme of it has even been incorporated into a rap song.

For me, the third movement is my favourite. I think it is a perfect, texbook example of 'Sturm und Drang'.

As for the fourth and last, although the triumphant theme is uplifting and grand, I feel the piece is spoiled by the rather over-done ending ... Beethoven reaches a climax but seems unable and unwilling to let it go, he hangs onto it for too long and it becomes a bit of a charicature.

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Amalie:

" 9 Dead Gay Guy's "

It pains me to read from the
NEW YORK POST - movie reviews, that:

Beethoven would indeed be distressed to
discover that his 5th Symphony is featured on the soundtrack of what is possibly the most distasteful movie of the year.
The low point of the movie involves a sexually frustrated dwarf and a cattle prod.

Straight or Gay, viewers will find " 9 Dead Gay Guy's " offensive and unwatchable.

******

My question is, why are movies like this passed as entertainment. With all due respect to straight or Gay's, surely this only serves to degrade the human condition, and an insult to peoples intelligence.

In my studies of law I have come across, in the field of intellectual property, the subject of 'moral rights'. The copyright owner of a work has the right for that work not to be used in a derogatory manner. It is a shame that this legal right cannot be granted to very great works of art, to be upheld by the State for perpetuity. I believe it is in the best interests of a society, of a civilisation, to preserve its greatest cultural achievements against cultural vandalism.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
In my studies of law I have come across, in the field of intellectual property, the subject of 'moral rights'. The copyright owner of a work has the right for that work not to be used in a derogatory manner. It is a shame that this legal right cannot be granted to very great works of art, to be upheld by the State for perpetuity. I believe it is in the best interests of a society, of a civilisation, to preserve its greatest cultural achievements against cultural vandalism.

Beethoven said of his music "It can meet no evil fate" - his name and music are eternal unlike a certain film referred to by Amalie!


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'Man know thyself'

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
In my studies of law I have come across, in the field of intellectual property, the subject of 'moral rights'. The copyright owner of a work has the right for that work not to be used in a derogatory manner. It is a shame that this legal right cannot be granted to very great works of art, to be upheld by the State for perpetuity. I believe it is in the best interests of a society, of a civilisation, to preserve its greatest cultural achievements against cultural vandalism.

Totally agree with everything you say Steppenwolf. Without wishing to sound a touch sceptical, does anyone really think, however, that any government in present Europe would be or is in the faintest degree interested in Europe's great cultural, spiritual and intellectual heritage? The governments of Europe, like the vast masses of our fellow men and women are entirely consumed by passing interests, whose lives are played out against a background of trash gratification and entertainments.
Beethoven of course has no decendants who could enforce intellectuall property rights.
Without wishing to make derogatory statements, but I hardly think the German Government, which is obsessed with political correctness, and distancing itself from its own past. Is much of a champion of Beethoven or anything that his art represents. Schroder and Beethoven is about as likely a combination as Blair and Shakespeare.
You raise an extremely important point about intellectual property rights, and it is almost as though insults are heaped on Beethoven in addition to injuries.
Firstly, his estate gets nothing financially , whenever his works are played all over the world.
Secondly, and this is the point which is crucial so far as Beethoven himself would be concerned is that these people, having got his music free, then indulge in what amounts to a rape of his memory, and his spiritual and intellectual, aims, and ideals.
It would be wonderful if there was a world Beethoven institute which could deal with these kind of matters. But there again I guess it would fall prey to rule committee and political correctness.

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Peter:

Beethoven said of his music "It can meet no evil fate" - his name and music are eternal unlike a certain film referred to by Amalie!

I agree, we have to be confident and optimistic that Beethoven will always soar above his detractor.

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Amalie:
does anyone really think, however, that any government in present Europe would be or is in the faintest degree interested in Europe's great cultural, spiritual and intellectual heritage?

Given that the EU recently turned the 9th symphony into a Rap song, I very much doubt it!

There is a book, Amalie, that I recomend you read, because I believe you would like it. It is called 'An Intelligent Person's Guide to Modern Culture' by Roger Scruton, which is available on Amazon. It offers a defense of high-culture and high art and gives a persuasive criticism of much of modern pop culture.

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:

Originally posted by Amalie:
does anyone really think, however, that any government in present Europe would be or is in the faintest degree interested in Europe's great cultural, spiritual and intellectual heritage?

Given that the EU recently turned the 9th symphony into a Rap song, I very much doubt it!

There is a book, Amalie, that I recomend you read, because I believe you would like it. It is called 'An Intelligent Person's Guide to Modern Culture' by Roger Scruton, which is available on Amazon. It offers a defense of high-culture and high art and gives a persuasive criticism of much of modern pop culture.

My husband has a couple of books by R.Scruton, but not the one you refer to.
Scruton certainly believes in swimming against the tide. And I commend him for that. From what I have read, his work is interesting but pretty much what most rational people think when surveying the world around us in which we live.
Certainly, the art of the renaissance is not going to be re-born amid a pile of bricks and dirty bed linen that passes for art at the Tate Gallery.
The cultural decay we see around us in Europe really feeds off itself, and if we could only break out of this circle of negativity and disillusion, we would I am sure be able to re-invigorate the arts.

To be fair, it has to be said, that many people who are left of centre, regard Scruton as a reactionary thinker who wants to put the clock back hundreds of years.
I am reminded of that wonderful quote of Orwell's , I think it was, when talking about T.S. Eliot's poetry that it achieved the extremely difficult feat of making modern life seem even worse that it really was!

Chin up!


[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 13, 2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Amalie:
My husband has a couple of books by R.Scruton, but not the one you refer to.
Scruton certainly believes in swimming against the tide. And I commend him for that. From what I have read, his work is interesting but pretty much what most rational people think when surveying the world around us in which we live.
Certainly, the art of the renaissance is not going to be re-born amid a pile of bricks and dirty bed linen that passes for art at the Tate Gallery.
The cultural decay we see around us in Europe really feeds off itself, and if we could only break out of this circle of negativity and disillusion, we would I am sure be able to re-invigorate the arts.

To be fair, it has to be said, that many people who are left of centre, regard Scruton as a reactionary thinker who wants to put the clock back hundreds of years.
I am reminded of that wonderful quote of Orwell's , I think it was, when talking about T.S. Eliot's poetry that it achieved the extremely difficult feat of making modern life seem even worse that it really was!

Chin up!


[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited February 13, 2004).]

These things do go in lengthy cycles - we may have to wait another 500 years! Anyway in one respect at least we are fortunate in that we have access to the finest recordings of the greatest music at the touch of a button - we also have the technology which enables sites such as this to promote the cause of great art to a large number of people - nearly 1,000,000 have looked at the Beethoven reference Site since its conception 4 years ago.

I think in a world of so much negativity it is important to look for the positive! 'And so to bed' with Op.127 Adagio!

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited February 13, 2004).]