good Beethoven book?

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Peter:
It's a while back now but I seem to recall yes its factual but goes a bit off track - hard to make a book out of hair even if it's Beethoven's!

It was in the 1970's that the full extent of Schindler's blatant distortions was revealed so biographies before the 80's tend to rely on him too heavily.

Peter,
What was discovered in the 70's that brought the new information to light?

[Peter]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Peter,
What was discovered in the 70's that brought the new information to light?

It was discovered that more than 150 entries in the conversation books had been made after Beethoven's death. There are entries dating back to 1819 in Schindler's hand but the only genuine ones are from Nov 1822 on. Although they briefly met in March 1814, it wasn't until Schindler switched from a legal to a musical career in 1822 and was appointed conductor and leader of the violins at the new Josephstadt theatre that a closer association began, though they were never on intimate terms as implied by Schindler. Within a few months Beethoven was writing to Grillparzer "As you noticed at Hetzendorf I have long found this importunate hanger-on Schindler most repulsive." Schindler's sycophantic manner was utterly distasteful to Beethoven!

After Beethoven's death the conversation book entries were falsified and many destroyed (the purpose has been shown to be primarily self serving) and in 1846 Schindler sold a major part of this material (which he had no claim over) in exchange for a lump sum and a life annuity. Heinrich Heine described him in 1841 as 'a black beanpole with a horrible white tie and a funereal expression' (see the photo of him on this site for the accuracy of the description!) who presented himself everywhere as 'L'ami de Beethoven' and bored every one to death with fatuous chatter!

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'Man know thyself'

[spaceray]

Well how did Beethoven's conversation books get into Schindler's hands ? If he had no claim to them ,did he steal them?
I presume Beethoven's effects were the property of his nephew Carl.

I read recently that Liszt owned Beethoven's
piano so the Estate of Ludwig Van Beethoven must have dispersed somehow.

[Tegan]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Well how did Beethoven's conversation books get into Schindler's hands ? If he had no claim to them ,did he steal them?
I presume Beethoven's effects were the property of his nephew Carl.

I read recently that Liszt owned Beethoven's
piano so the Estate of Ludwig Van Beethoven must have dispersed somehow.

I recall reading somewhere that Schindler added alot of false conversations into those books so he could sell them for a better profit. I don't know if it's true or not.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Tegan:
I recall reading somewhere that Schindler added alot of false conversations into those books so he could sell them for a better profit. I don't know if it's true or not.

Well it is true and I refer to it in my last post, if you scroll up the page!


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'Man know thyself'

[spaceray]

Yes but how did the conversation books get into Schindlers hands ,did he help himself to them after Beethoven's death?

How did Beethoven's Klavier become Liszt's?
Goodness was it still playable after B had finished with it?

[Peter]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Yes but how did the conversation books get into Schindlers hands ,did he help himself to them after Beethoven's death?

How did Beethoven's Klavier become Liszt's?
Goodness was it still playable after B had finished with it?

Yes he helped himself obviously realising its significance as biographical material. No one else seemed that bothered anyway and the remainder of Beethoven's estate was auctioned off in April 1827. I can't off hand recall how Liszt came into possession of a Beethoven piano - certainly through more legitimate means than Schindler!

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'Man know thyself'

[spaceray]

It's creepy to think of Beethoven on his deathbed and the likes of Schindler pocketing souvenirs to sell.Who was advocating for Beethoven at the time of his death?

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:


After Beethoven's death the conversation book entries were falsified and many destroyed (the purpose has been shown to be primarily self serving) and in 1846 Schindler sold a major part of this material (which he had no claim over) in exchange for a lump sum and a life annuity. Heinrich Heine described him in 1841 as 'a black beanpole with a horrible white tie and a funereal expression' (see the photo of him on this site for the accuracy of the description!) who presented himself everywhere as 'L'ami de Beethoven' and bored every one to death with fatuous chatter!

That scoundrel!!


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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Peter]

Originally posted by spaceray:
It's creepy to think of Beethoven on his deathbed and the likes of Schindler pocketing souvenirs to sell.Who was advocating for Beethoven at the time of his death?

Stephan Von Breuning, but I don't think he can be blamed in this - Schindler probably convinced him that he needed the material to write a biography - as we don't know what was contained in the missing conversation books we can only speculate that Schindler considered them harmful to his own reputation or possibly to Beethoven's. Breuning was dead way before Schindler's biography appeared.

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'Man know thyself'

[Tegan]

Originally posted by Peter:

Well it is true and I refer to it in my last post, if you scroll up the page!

Oops. The really sad thing is, I actually read your post before I responded...Sorry about that.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Tegan:
Oops. The really sad thing is, I actually read your post before I responded...Sorry about that.

That's ok - glad to know they make a great impression!

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'Man know thyself'

[Tegan]

Originally posted by Peter:
That's ok - glad to know they make a great impression!

Well, maybe that's where I read it. Hopefully. My memory is obviously leaving me.

[Rob]

I recently read the book "Beethoven's Hair"
A very good book. The author bought a lock of his hair and had it tested in a lab to find out what drugs, ailments etc that were in Beethovens system at the time of his death. I highly recommend this to any Beethoven fan.

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Peter.
---------------------------

Of greater value would be these two which I do not as yet possess:

Beethoven Letters Journals and Conversations, Michael Hamburger (Editor), Ludwig Van Beethoven. Thames & Hudson. 1992. ISBN 0500273243 (paperback)

The Letters of Beethoven. Theodore Albrecht, ed. Letters to Beethoven , 3 vols. (Univ. of Nebraska Press, 1996).
The first collection of all of the letters known to have been written to Beethoven. This is a very reliable and fact-filled source that is a fascinating read. It also contains translations of over 70 letters of Beethoven which are not included in Anderson.


Peter,
I have the 3 Volumes of: The Letters to Beethoven, by Theodore Albrecht, as you have mentioned. And was wondering whether you have been experiencing some difficulty in obtaining them, as you mentioned you have yet to possess these volumes.
Perhaps I can do a search for you?.



[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited January 29, 2004).]