Beethoven and italian music

[Pastorali]

Beethoven didn't like italian operas. He often was sarcastic about it.

How was his relationship and knowing to other italian music or composers? Did he know for example some of Vivaldi's compositions?

[spaceray]

"...serious opera does not lie in the nature of the Italians. For the true drama,they know not enough of the science of music;and how should they aquire that in Italy? In opera buffa none can equal Italians. Your language and your temperment predestine you for it. Look at Cimarosa:how much superior the comic parts in his operas are to the rest!The same with Pergolesi.You Italians,I know,boast of his sacred music.I concede that the sentiment of his Stabat is very touching,but the form lacks variety.the effect is monotonous.On the other hand the Serva padrona..."
Rossini's report of a conversation with Beethoven

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by spaceray:
"...serious opera does not lie in the nature of the Italians. For the true drama,they know not enough of the science of music;and how should they aquire that in Italy? In opera buffa none can equal Italians. Your language and your temperment predestine you for it. Look at Cimarosa:how much superior the comic parts in his operas are to the rest!The same with Pergolesi.You Italians,I know,boast of his sacred music.I concede that the sentiment of his Stabat is very touching,but the form lacks variety.the effect is monotonous.On the other hand the Serva padrona..."
Rossini's report of a conversation with Beethoven

Doesn't sound too harsh. If I recall correctly from what I read, B encouraged Rossini (something like that) to keep on with the comic stuff, he indeed disliked the "serious" part of the Italian Opera, and I have to agree, it's very soap-opera, it gets on my nerves that every opera has someone to die on the end (italian).

[Peter]

He had a sneaking admiration for Rossini (he particularly praised the Barber of Seville) and I think his criticisms were more aimed at Viennese popular taste which in his later years preferred Italian opera to his own works. According to Karl Freudenberg, Beethoven said in 1825 that 'Rossini was a talented and melodious composer whose music suited the frivolous and sensuous spirit of the times'.

However he had nothing but admiration for Palestrina who he regarded as the best church composer because his music was written 'a cappella' 'the only true church style' and because it used the old modes.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited January 31, 2004).]

[v russo]

Beethoven, from his own writings seems to have questions the overall Italian contribution to western art music. This is obsurd in my view. To think of Palestrina, Monteverdi (who created opera!) to Corelli (who formulated writing on modern instruments) to Vivaldi etc, etc... you would have to be ignorant to make such a comment. Palestrina was one of the most advanced thinkers in music history, Monteverdi one of its greatest innovators.

To speak of the italian contribution with terms like 'frivolity' is an un-truth!
It is amazing that someone on this forum could say that, "Italians did not have enough knowledge of the science of music"....THEY CREATED THE SCIENCE OF MUSIC! What did Italians contribute?
What about the other genres? Does Dante and Michaelangelo ring a bell?

please.

I believe Beethoven was a bit miffed at all of the attention Rossini was getting, and even he was not above jealousy.

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v russo

[v russo]

and the language of love as well as music is the language of??

.....?......

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v russo

[spaceray]

Originally posted by v russo:

It is amazing that someone on this forum could say that, "Italians did not have enough knowledge of the science of music"....THEY CREATED THE SCIENCE OF MUSIC!
please.

My quote came from a book titled"La visite de R.Wagner a' Rossini"
by E Michotte

I assure you that these are not MY opinions.

Rossini was quite put off and upset by his meeting with Beethoven and went to some trouble to try to arrange help for this great composer who he esteemed highly.
He was told by Beethoven's friends that it would be pointless to try to get up a subscription to buy Beethoven a house.
"You do not know Beethoven.On the day after he finds himself the owner of a house,he will sell it.He will never know how to adjust himself to a permanent home; he feels the need of changing his lodgings ever six months and his servant every six weeks..."

This was all I have so far found regarding this threads question of B's opinion of Italian composers.

[Peter]

Originally posted by v russo:
Beethoven, from his own writings seems to have questions the overall Italian contribution to western art music. This is obsurd in my view. To think of Palestrina, Monteverdi (who created opera!) to Corelli (who formulated writing on modern instruments) to Vivaldi etc, etc... you would have to be ignorant to make such a comment. Palestrina was one of the most advanced thinkers in music history, Monteverdi one of its greatest innovators.

To speak of the italian contribution with terms like 'frivolity' is an un-truth!
It is amazing that someone on this forum could say that, "Italians did not have enough knowledge of the science of music"....THEY CREATED THE SCIENCE OF MUSIC! What did Italians contribute?
What about the other genres? Does Dante and Michaelangelo ring a bell?

please.

I believe Beethoven was a bit miffed at all of the attention Rossini was getting, and even he was not above jealousy.

But Beethoven truly admired Palestrina! His comments about 'frivolity' were in reference to Italian opera of the early 19th century and to Viennese society of the time.

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'Man know thyself'

[v russo]

Originally posted by Peter:
But Beethoven truly admired Palestrina! His comments about 'frivolity' were in reference to Italian opera of the early 19th century and to Viennese society of the time.

True, but I have read where B was questioning the "overall" contribution of the Italians. See his book of letters...



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v russo