EU Slammed as Beethoven Anthem Goes Hip-Hop

[Amalie]

Originally posted by v russo:
now, now enough of this US Bashing! To you I say Charles Ives, Andy Warhol and Robert Frost (to name a few).

And Tony Blair is a great leader and individual. Pray you do not have an attack like we have had on our soil. Something tells me Beethoven would want to eradicate a growing threat to democracy and free people around the world.

Oh yes, TB is a great leader. He is up their with Churchill and the younger Pitt, in my view. I love his grasp of history and culture, and the way he profoundly understands the meaning of words and total communication. He is truly the PERICLES of our age! And if you believe all that........................................

I am greatly impressed at the way he has made the office of Prime Minister more 'Rock' friendly, and I am sure Winston Churchill would love to have played the guitar too, just like our Hip-Hop Tony does!!


[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited January 30, 2004).]

[Rob]

I suppose it would be best to keep politics out of a purely musical disgussion. My, somewhat, sensational comparison using the Taliban's crime was meant to be anecdotal and sensational in order to vent my fury. I feel more anger as a musician than as an American. There's nothing left to be done, at the end of the day, when some no-talent loop-maker lifts a few bars of Beethoven and puts it to a "beat". Obviously Beethoven's music has and will be around much longer, and has already made the world a better place. No permanent harm done, just an example of how far in the toilet pop culture can, and will always go. Just another hair in the Mona Lisa's mustache. Boring, tedious dreck.

[Peter]

Originally posted by v russo:
now, now enough of this US Bashing! To you I say Charles Ives, Andy Warhol and Robert Frost (to name a few).

And Tony Blair is a great leader and individual. Pray you do not have an attack like we have had on our soil.

Well by praising the cultural achievements of Europe I was hardly attacking the US or any other culture, all of which are of value. It is fair to say though with artists such as Bach, Handel, Mozart, Beethoven, Shakespeare, Goethe, Leonardo da Vinci, Raphael, Titian to name a few we have made perhaps the greatest contribution, even though I risk being slain by the politically correct brigade!

As for an attack on our soil, well there was this thing called the Blitz! Interesting that Churchill's famous victory V is tyhe opening rhythm in morse code of Beethoven's 5th which was such a potent symbol for the resistance.



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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Amalie:

It is quite true, censorship at least in a nominal sense was quite pronounced in Beethoven's Vienna, but on the whole it had a fairly light touch and did not affect great artists like Beethoven, and we should all be aware that it most certainly was not a police state in the sense that Stalin's Russia was, with people getting the six o'clock knock in the morning and disappearing into a Gulag.
The point about the modern EU is that it is a product that has been founded from its start on fraud and lies, and far from uniting the people of Europe serves only to alienate them in my opinion. Everyone has their own view of course, but no one can persuade me that Beethoven would have been anything other than appalled at the present set up in Brussels.

[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited January 30, 2004).]

You are right in saying that the police state of Metternich was not on the tyrannical scale of Soviet Russia, but artists such as Schubert and his friends were directly affected - The meetings he had with friends were carefully monitored and even banned. Schubert was indeed present when his friend Senn was arrested and expelled from Vienna. Another example of Viennese 'tolerance' and democracy at this time was that middle and lower class men were generally not allowed to marry under the age of 40 (if they lived that long) with all the inevitable dire social consequences.

I agree Brussels is far from democratic (Westminster even less so in my opinion), but at least we are no longer blowing each other to bits. Of course there is a precedent for a united Europe under Roman rule and it is strange how that period in history is generally looked back upon with admiration for its 'civilisation'.

Beethoven's 9th I think was an appropiate choice of anthem to celebrate European culture and the aspirations of humanity united in brotherhood - just a shame that they have to downgrade even this.

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited January 30, 2004).]

[Pastorali]

Yes, why thinking in dimensions of countries, continents, or what ever? Beethoven's music is a inheritance and present to everybody. It's music for our galaxy!

(Because this is not a political forum, I don't say my meaning about Mister Blair)

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by v russo:

And Tony Blair is a great leader and individual. Pray you do not have an attack like we have had on our soil.

Er ... I hate to have to point this out to you, but we in Europe are in fact quite used to having attacks on our soil.

Let's just take a few examples, a few of very many that I could take. Over 150 thousand people (yes, ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND) died in the bombing of London throughout World War II. Germany suffered no less severely. About 200 thousand people (perhaps more) died IN ONE NIGHT of bombing in Dresden. And that is not taking into account the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS who died in the bombing of Berlin, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Warsaw, etc. That's leaving out the appalling casualties of the first world war - the battle of the Somme, for instance, when about 50 thousand British men were killed in ONE HOUR, and over a million in the whole battle. ONE MILLION!

And what about America, then,??? .... 3 thousand on September 11th ... THREE .. it doesn't really compare, does it??

The loss of a single human life in such circumstances is a tragedy, and I don't mean any disrespect to the human suffering caused by the September 11th attacks, nor do I question America's right to defend itself and retaliate ... but in contrast to the miseries suffered by Europe, it seems that America has, historically, got off quite lightly. That's why it is a little annoying to be told that we have never suffered anything like September 11th, as if this is the first atrocity ever to be committed in the history of the world.

As for Tony Blair, I will say only this, that I find it really odd how all the conservatives in America round up and praise him with enthusiasm. American conservatives of all people! The most hardened, stubborn and zealous right-wingers imaginable. If a President in America acted like Blair has over here in Britain - for instance in dismantling the constitution, tearing apart ancient national institutions, and preparing to hand over national sovereignty to a foreign power - the American conservatives would be foaming at the mouth and screaming in the streets. So, if you are a liberal, by all means praise Tony Blair. But if you are in any way conservative, PLEASE don't praise him, because it just shows your ignorance as to what he is really like.

Sorry, moderators, for drifting off into a non-Beethovian tangent again, but to swing the discussion back onto course, I would like to conclude by saying that Beethoven, a lover of human freedom, would surely have hated the incursions into human freedom and liberty made by liberty-hating socialists like Tony Blair!


[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited January 30, 2004).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
Beethoven, a lover of human freedom, would surely have hated the incursions into human freedom and liberty made by liberty-hating socialists like Tony Blair!

Tony is about as socialist as J Edgar Hoover!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[v russo]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
Er ... I hate to have to point this out to you, but we in Europe are in fact quite used to having attacks on our soil.

Let's just take a few examples, a few of very many that I could take. Over 150 thousand people (yes, ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND) died in the bombing of London throughout World War II. Germany suffered no less severely. About 200 thousand people (perhaps more) died IN ONE NIGHT of bombing in Dresden. And that is not taking into account the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS who died in the bombing of Berlin, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Warsaw, etc. That's leaving out the appalling casualties of the first world war - the battle of the Somme, for instance, when about 50 thousand British men were killed in ONE HOUR, and over a million in the whole battle. ONE MILLION!

And what about America, then,??? .... 3 thousand on September 11th ... THREE .. it doesn't really compare, does it??

The loss of a single human life in such circumstances is a tragedy, and I don't mean any disrespect to the human suffering caused by the September 11th attacks, nor do I question America's right to defend itself and retaliate ... but in contrast to the miseries suffered by Europe, it seems that America has, historically, got off quite lightly. That's why it is a little annoying to be told that we have never suffered anything like September 11th, as if this is the first atrocity ever to be committed in the history of the world.

As for Tony Blair, I will say only this, that I find it really odd how all the conservatives in America round up and praise him with enthusiasm. American conservatives of all people! The most hardened, stubborn and zealous right-wingers imaginable. If a President in America acted like Blair has over here in Britain - for instance in dismantling the constitution, tearing apart ancient national institutions, and preparing to hand over national sovereignty to a foreign power - the American conservatives would be foaming at the mouth and screaming in the streets. So, if you are a liberal, by all means praise Tony Blair. But if you are in any way conservative, PLEASE don't praise him, because it just shows your ignorance as to what he is really like.

Sorry, moderators, for drifting off into a non-Beethovian tangent again, but to swing the discussion back onto course, I would like to conclude by saying that Beethoven, a lover of human freedom, would surely have hated the incursions into human freedom and liberty made by liberty-hating socialists like Tony Blair!


[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited January 30, 2004).]

I was speaking in the today, not in the past and I am well aware of your history (my families family is from Europe, as are most peoples families from the USA)

My opinion still stands. I feel this to be the truth. Al Queda hates europe as much as America and Isreal. WAKE UP, this is serious problem! It is a war of shadows now and men like Mr. Blair and Mr. Bush are seeing to make the world a safer place (like it or not, like them or not).



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v russo

[v russo]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
Er ... I hate to have to point this out to you, but we in Europe are in fact quite used to having attacks on our soil.

Let's just take a few examples, a few of very many that I could take. Over 150 thousand people (yes, ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND) died in the bombing of London throughout World War II. Germany suffered no less severely. About 200 thousand people (perhaps more) died IN ONE NIGHT of bombing in Dresden. And that is not taking into account the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS who died in the bombing of Berlin, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Warsaw, etc. That's leaving out the appalling casualties of the first world war - the battle of the Somme, for instance, when about 50 thousand British men were killed in ONE HOUR, and over a million in the whole battle. ONE MILLION!

And what about America, then,??? .... 3 thousand on September 11th ... THREE .. it doesn't really compare, does it??

The loss of a single human life in such circumstances is a tragedy, and I don't mean any disrespect to the human suffering caused by the September 11th attacks, nor do I question America's right to defend itself and retaliate ... but in contrast to the miseries suffered by Europe, it seems that America has, historically, got off quite lightly. That's why it is a little annoying to be told that we have never suffered anything like September 11th, as if this is the first atrocity ever to be committed in the history of the world.

As for Tony Blair, I will say only this, that I find it really odd how all the conservatives in America round up and praise him with enthusiasm. American conservatives of all people! The most hardened, stubborn and zealous right-wingers imaginable. If a President in America acted like Blair has over here in Britain - for instance in dismantling the constitution, tearing apart ancient national institutions, and preparing to hand over national sovereignty to a foreign power - the American conservatives would be foaming at the mouth and screaming in the streets. So, if you are a liberal, by all means praise Tony Blair. But if you are in any way conservative, PLEASE don't praise him, because it just shows your ignorance as to what he is really like.

Sorry, moderators, for drifting off into a non-Beethovian tangent again, but to swing the discussion back onto course, I would like to conclude by saying that Beethoven, a lover of human freedom, would surely have hated the incursions into human freedom and liberty made by liberty-hating socialists like Tony Blair!


[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited January 30, 2004).]

...and the atrocities perpetuated in World War 2 would have been far greater if not for the USA. Have you forgotten this?

The continent today would have been speaking German.

sorry: no more politics unless it applies to art and Beethoven.



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v russo

[Peter]

Topic is getting out of hand and will be closed - I hoped we could discuss this in relation to the Europe of Beethoven's time, that would be quite interesting, the rest is irrelevant on this forum.

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'Man know thyself'