Classical music's graying and shrinking audience - a new answer

[Opus131]

Originally posted by Amalie:

I would like to reiterate that- brain dead 'Pop' culture, Thrash Metal, Gorfest, Sepulchure, Pantera, Murder Dolls, A Thousand Dead, to name a few, totally degrades the human condition.

Hey, i used to like Pantera

I don't think any of this degrade the human condition, none of the kids who listen to this music take it seriously (only their parents), no more then any horror movies or a Stephen King story.

Indeed, the fact they tend to see it as mere entarteiment it's part of the issue...


[This message has been edited by Opus131 (edited January 17, 2004).]

[Pastorali]

Originally posted by Amalie:
I agree with everything you have said on this thread Steppenwolf.

I would like to reiterate that- brain dead 'Pop' culture, Thrash Metal, Gorfest, Sepulchure, Pantera, Murder Dolls, A Thousand Dead, to name a few, totally degrades the human condition.
All have a warped sick obsession with sex and death. Yes, there is a culture of death out there!


[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited January 17, 2004).]

Sounds all horrible. I'm glad not knowing one of them

[Rod]

Originally posted by spaceray:
I joined Rod's site at the begining and have tried posting frequently ,but it rarely generates any interesting discussion.Probably due to my own lack of sparkling repartee.I got lonely posting all by myself over there and gave up about a month ago.
The music is wonderful though and I have downloaded nearly everything that Rod has offered,I'm a bit off vocal music these days(Christmas always does this to me) but if Rod posts anymore instrumental music I will go back and enjoy it for he does have excellent taste in Handel.

I am all too aware that little discussion is generated, but at the moment it is membership I need to boost the sites position in the yahoogroup Handel directory. But anyone who downloads the music is morally obliged to write a post of some kind to encourage my further effort! At the moment there is some instrumental music at the site, namely the overture to the Brockes Passion, a very nice piece.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[spaceray]

What is the point of having a forum that doesn't generate discussion?The free music is very nice but no one really seems too interested in talking about it .Of your 45 or so members it seems only a small handfull have ever posted anything.What does it take to generate scintilating exchanges about this great composer and his music?

[Rod]

Originally posted by spaceray:
What is the point of having a forum that doesn't generate discussion?The free music is very nice but no one really seems too interested in talking about it .Of your 45 or so members it seems only a small handfull have ever posted anything.What does it take to generate scintilating exchanges about this great composer and his music?

I don't know, but the more visible the site becomes the more likely it will attract people who will talk.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Zhire]

Originally posted by Peter:
The expense issue can't be the sole reason - Classical cds are no more expensive than pop. When one considers the cost of staging an opera I suppose some justification can be found for the extortionate ticket prices at most opera houses (though ENO at the Colloseum manage it at an affordale price).

Classical music has always been a minority interest and I think more than ever now it comes down to education (or rather lack of it) image and peer pressure - CM is simply not perceived as cool (thank goodness!). By its very nature, its philosophy and spirituality CM is extremely demanding of the listener, and in an age of instant gratification people aren't prepared to search for answers and meaning in life, certainly not at a young age which is to be expected.

Hmm...while it is true that the vast majority of youth are not really exposed to or educated about classical music, I am not so sure this is why they don't enjoy it.

While my love for classical music, and more specifically, Beethoven, HAS intensified with my increased understandings and developing musicianship over the years, I still had a passion for it at a very young age. I had no idea as to what was going on technically as far as the forms and style. I just loved listening to it...and the emotions that came out of it.

When I was 5 years old I started signing Happy Birthday cards on the 16th of December and I would leave them in my piano bench. At that age I was hardly educated at all as far as music goes...barely figuring out some cheesy made-easy version of Fur Elise. My point is, I don't think one has to understand what exactly is going on to be able to enjoy the music nor do you have to listen actively - though more rewarding and also enjoyable to do so. I feel that a passive listening in which you let the music take its effect on you can be enjoyable. Listening to and enjoying classical music does not need to be difficult work.

Also, as far as ticket prices are concerned....who is getting all this money? Certainly not the musicians. (Grins) I am 17, and I will be going on to study primarily music in college...but with my inflexibility to play anything other than classical music, I will definitely need to have something to fall back on.

[This message has been edited by Zhire (edited January 24, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Zhire (edited January 24, 2004).]

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zhire:

When I was 5 years old I started signing Happy Birthday cards on the 16th of December and I would leave them in my piano bench. At that age I was hardly educated at all as far as music goes...barely figuring out some cheesy made-easy version of Fur Elise. My point is, I don't think one has to understand what exactly is going on to be able to enjoy the music nor do you have to listen actively - though more rewarding and also enjoyable to do so.


Yes but for you to have been aware of the significance of Dec 16th at the age of 5 you must have been educated in some way! Perhaps your parents are musical and listen to classical music?

By education I mean children should be exposed to classical music at a young age, obviously not all will grow up with a love for it, but many more will.

Also, as far as ticket prices are concerned....who is getting all this money? Certainly not the musicians. (Grins) I am 17, and I will be going on to study primarily music in college...but with my inflexibility to play anything other than classical music, I will definitely need to have something to fall back on.



Well obviously only the really top players can expect to earn substantial incomes, the rest of us mortals have to fall back on teaching! I wish you good luck with your studies and hope you'll stick around with us here at the forum! Are you studying any Beethoven at the moment?


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'Man know thyself'

[urtextmeister]

In regard to appreciating music:

I didn't mean to imply that being educated about classical music is necessary in order to enjoy it. In fact, I think Beethoven and Bach had a greater impact on me as a child, before I knew anything about music. Now, I have more distractions. I am evaluating the performance, evaluating the piece, working on ear training, etc. Someday I hope to get back to the gut reaction I had as a child.

Regarding music as a profession:

I support my family of four comfortably by playing the piano. I do not teach, nor am I a top player by any stretch of the imagination. I would advocate learning all aspects of music, if you want to make money at it, but in many ways, you have an equal or greater chance of making money with classical than with other styles.

[spaceray]

A lot of people mention hearing classical music when a young child and loving it ever after. My five month old grandaughter's parents listen to the most obnoxious music I have ever heard (I don't even know what genre)however 2 days a week when she's over at grannies we listen to Beethoven,Hadyn,Bach,and Mozart's chambermusic.I wonder what this exposure to classical will do for her, if anything?

[v russo]

ah, all is soft core pornography, all is soft core pornography these days my friends. Kids want pops stars, movie stars, rap stars porno stars even... etc,etc. It's just us left and the blue hairs crawling to the finish line I'm afraid.
8)

Honestly, the key lies in concert programming. There is a whole century plus of music that has been largely neglected. Bring in newer music, you bring in youth, you sustain the life of concert music in the west.

Composers like Glass, Reich, and even Brian Eno provide a link from pop to classical to pop again. Show people something they can relate to and then trace back to its roots.
We all do this in a way. Pop culture is too low brow and simple, and those addicted to it feel excluded from the finer arts.

Make it a point of inclusiveness....



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v russo

[Zhire]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter:


Yes but for you to have been aware of the significance of Dec 16th at the age of 5 you must have been educated in some way! Perhaps your parents are musical and listen to classical music?



Actually, I am the only one in my family who listens to classical music. My mother was aware of my interests though...we had taken out a biography from the library and I had her read it to me. Different, yes, but don't develop the image of this incredibly mature young five year old. I was just as hyperactive and wild as the others...I would just be bouncing off the walls to the 9th, 2nd Mvm.

Well obviously only the really top players can expect to earn substantial incomes, the rest of us mortals have to fall back on teaching! I wish you good luck with your studies and hope you'll stick around with us here at the forum! Are you studying any Beethoven at the moment?



Yes, the Tempest.





[This message has been edited by Zhire (edited January 25, 2004).]

[mrfixit]

Give out LSD at all concerts? LOL. Seriously what you need is a public broadcasting service to raise its profile. *coughBBCcough* Sadly the proaganda tube is more interested in puting out reality t v garbage. Tv has aways been crap, but at least you could escape with some fictional or scf fi stuff. Now they shove the boring mundane down our throats. When they finally do get round to doing a diffrent genre they will over do it to death.

I supose they could bring dead composers back to life in the Big brother house to raise there profile like all D list celebrities do. Or they can get macdonalds to help out. They have arteady done this with a peice of music by the Big B but its name escapes me. I think i will have to start calling it the Mc Chicken Sandwich song LOL.

PS: The only way i can think is teach more in schools. They force kids to study shakespeare before there ready, and puting them of him. I think classical music would be a lot more easy for them to deal with.

[spaceray]

Originally posted by mrfixit:

PS: The only way i can think is teach more in schools. They force kids to study
shakespeare before there ready, and puting them of him. I think classical music would be a lot more easy for them to deal with.

I disagree,begin with Shakespeare&Beethoven
as soon as possible,I take every opportunity
to play classical music and read to my grandaughter who is five months old. I will give her a taste for good food too so that she won't need Mr MacDonald's wares.
I'll let you know how she turns out.

[Opus131]

Originally posted by v russo:
Kids want pops stars, movie stars, rap stars porno stars even... etc,etc.

Greatest mistake one could do is to generalize 'kids' under one paragrim, it almost makes me mad.

I'm sorry, but popular culture it's aimed at STUPID kids, who just so happen to be the majority.

This youngsters will grow up to be materialistic, bland individuals and i think classical music should stir as clear as it can from that sort (reason why crossovers rarely work, why do classical musicians always feel to team up with untalanted popular picks ?!? ).

During the centuries, music (great music) has always been the patrimony of a selected few, and that's not going to change anytime soon.

Classical music it's an elite venue and that should be aknowledged.

For 10 kids who are only concerned with pop culture, there's at least one who's artistically and intellectually minded.

When i was a child (a few years back, as it were), i hated rap, pop music and movie stars. I leaned towards the more obscure artists, the more proficient musicians and the more meaningful music avaible.

Many kids i knew shared similar views. There was only one problem : what was avaible didn't include classical music, because classical music was too buisy trying to win over Breatny Spear fans.

The problem is that a lot of classical listeners are too old/jaded to understand pop culture and they see it under one generalized light, they can't understant creativity and genious can spawn under any circumstation.

For every petty rock star, there's always going to be a would be Beethoven, or a Mozart, and musically minded children are more likely to be attracted by those talents rather then shallow and uninspired drivel.

Ironically, classical music, in it's attempt to show itself accessable to pop culture will come off just as shallow and uninspired, and will be totally ignored.

I mean, how can anybody hope to win over a group of children by playing 'o sole mio' or Mozart juvenillia ?!?

If anybody would have played the Grosse Fugue to me when i was in grade school i would jumped on that in a heart beat.

All in all, i think there's only one way to educate people to classical music : EXPOSURE (and correct exposure at that, none of that 'for newcomers' crap).

That's all, that's the big secret, that's the one thing that could save classical music...

[Opus131]

Originally posted by mrfixit:

PS: The only way i can think is teach more in schools. They force kids to study shakespeare before there ready, and puting them of him. I think classical music would be a lot more easy for them to deal with.

You can learn a language as you study the words and the grammar, but you can only truly learn a language by being exposed to it.

With music, this concepta stretches even furthere.

I say make those children listen to music in kinder garden school, what the heck are they doing playing with toys anyway ?!?